Zeitgeist: Moving Forward Sucks

February 26, 2011

Category: The Venus Project Email Email    Print Print    

The Venus Project virus continues to infect thousands

Let me start by congratulating the makers of this movie for producing an exceptional piece of propaganda in the classical sense of the term — it very articulately conveys a message that even us unenlightened gentiles can understand. But fortunately for the world, it’s not quite persuasive enough to effect any meaningful change. In this stormy cloud of ideas lies a dangerous system of beliefs that despite the best intentions of Jacques Fresco and his followers will further entrench the power elite onto their thrones.

Despite a fascinating discussion about the nature of human nature the film fails to address some of the main causes of irrational decision making; one of the most important of which is a desire to be consistent. I believe the creators of this film are suffering from this inadequacy; they have begun their journey with the conclusion that money and trade are evil then ironically evolved a belief system that advocates a scientific dictatorship by un-scientifically “fixing the facts” around their case. Rather than designing the perfect system and concluding trade and money are no longer required they have done the reverse by starting with the premise that money and trade are unnecessary then filling the gaps with idealism and delusion. Nobody even questions whether perfection is possible or desirable.

As any prophet in the past advocating radical change has experienced, Jacques Fresco describes the hostility he has faced from those who disagree with his belief system. I personally found this quite amusing after the torrent of insults and personal attacks hurled in my direction after the previous film. If any followers have managed to contain their anger and disgust sufficiently to read this far into my review, I would simply direct you to the comment section of the following post – not to form the basis of any rebuttal of Jacques’ gospel, but to make a simple point – people everywhere hate being exposed to information that contradicts ideas they have already accepted as truth. You may score some sympathy points for your meaningless banter but it doesn’t add value to your argument, we have all had similar experiences. The flaw runs deeply on all sides of any argument, psychologists call it cognitive dissonance.

Bites of Point

The people advocating a resource based economy still fail to recognize the difference between money and currency. You will not eliminate items of persistent value that can be predictably exchanged by shutting down the printing presses. The film does nothing to address this reality.

The film also fails to explain how abundance can be achieved, other than by including a veiled concession that desires will be addressed by dismissing them as wasteful ‘wants’ or contradicting the whole premise of the new order by suggesting we should share and trade any scarce items of value – because to maximize the efficient use of resources ownership is evil and I really want a stranger sleeping in my bed when I take a vacation or go to the park. I lived in a hotel for a few months once… I didn’t even realize how uncomfortable I was until I got my own place. Similarly, this system is dependant for its survival on building a wall of ignorance to separate people from understanding the true pleasures of satisfying their ‘wants’.

It astonishes me that nobody in their “movement” recognizes the risk of entrusting 100% of the responsibility to manage the new order into the hands of just 3% of the population. After complaining about a small percentage of the population manipulating the economy today, how is that an improvement? How is that something consistent with abolishing powerful elite or de-centralizing power to prevent catastrophic abuse?

If only 3% of the population is needed to maintain the system, why do we need the other 97%? Isn’t it obvious the most efficient use of resources, ultimately, is to farm non-contributing people for desirable genes and eliminate the rest? The movie begins with an argument against eugenics only to make the case for it.

I asked some important questions about the lives of the other 97% and all we hear is fantasy about people looking at the stars and returning to their childhood. Give me a break! Creativity is good and we should encourage people to think differently but maturity is not a problem that needs to be fixed.

I still see no adequate answer to how the system will prevent non-resource based conflicts that often cause hostility and could ultimately develop into criminal levels of behavior (cheating, lying, deception, relationships, sports, arts, culture, fashion, music, decency, etiquette, manners, etc.)

Given that most research projects fail, there is still no adequate answer for who will ultimately be responsible for determining which projects are allocated which finite resources. Does each city maintain their own master computer’s source code? Who are the programmers?

There is still no adequate answer for distribution of newly invented goods in an equitable manner.

There is still no adequate answer for who controls the master global resource allocator.

There is still no adequate answer for dealing with people who refuse to submit to this system.

Please, feel free to extend this list in the comment section below.

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40 Comments »

Comment by tom cruiseisgay
2011-02-26 18:57:01

just keep in mind that humans will never achieve perfection. It is not a perfect system it’s just way better than the current one.

 
Comment by bilveg
2011-02-27 03:39:53

Your arguments and questions tells me that you need to watch the film again, you obviously haven’t understood what a resource based economy is. When that’s said, off course there are issues regarding an RBE that will be unresolved until it’s put into practice (the scientific method needs empirical data), but that’s not a good reason to chuck the whole thing.

When it comes to money or currency, really to all forms of barter, they create inequality. Inequality has proven to be the main driver of social problems in society hence, a sustainable society has to operate without barter.

 
Comment by cr0ft
2011-02-27 05:54:29

It’s amazing how so many nay-sayers find it so impossible to step out of their finance think even long enough to actually debate society – not economics.

All the points about entrusting this and value that is just you viewing the concept of a resource-based economy through your own bias on economics and money. You haven’t managed to simplify your world view or your view of an RBE to the point where you have gotten to the basic functioning of it and of the world – you’re thinking of some bizarre hybrid of current-day society with elements of an RBE, which is obviously absolutely foolish and obviously completely unworkable. The problem lies not in the RBE concept – it lies in your ability to grasp it properly, and I say that with all hope that you can actually learn to see it.

Of course the concept of shared ownership will have its limits. You wouldn’t share your underwear, nor would you share your home. But that power drill – you know, the one you probably have somewhere gathering dust even now – that is going to see a sum total of 12 minutes (!) of active use until it is discarded could just as easily be delivered to you when you request it from the system. You could then hang on to it and drill with it until you were done, and then you’d just put it back in the delivery system to be returned to the central stores.

As for the 3% vs 97% nonsense you mention up here… neither the 3% nor the 97% are disadvantaged in any way in an RBE. The 3% who run the systems that produce things for people’s daily needs would presumably be doing that because they find it meaningful and interesting. The 97% would be doing everything else – research, development, scientific thinking, educating themselves, educating others, creating art, raising children… the list of occupations for people to pursue that actually require human ingenuity is nearly limitless. Among those things that don’t require human ingenuity once we’ve built the mechanical systems to do it? Garbage collecting, carrying bags, cleaning out sewers and so on and so on.

An RBE is all about freeing mankind. All mankind. The computers are only there to help us keep track of what we have to work with, not to enforce anything over anyone.

You need to re-study up on what an RBE is. You have yet to grasp it.

 
Comment by Dave37
2011-02-27 07:58:46

Contact me and I will answer all your questions.

Dave37_@hotmail.com

 
Comment by point
2011-02-27 09:42:01

Every time I have these debates I am accused of “not understanding” the concept, as if this system is something so complex only the high priests of Nicaea can grasp it’s sophistication. My questions are not all about high-level philosophical concerns, they are also about day-to-day management details that nobody appears to have sufficiently addressed. If I don’t see adequate solutions to these problems, believe me, there are many many more people out there in the same state of mind. You can’t deal with us by simply saying, “the trinity is too complex for your mortal mind, only God and Jacques Fresco truly understand”.

“Of course the concept of shared ownership will have its limits”

Doesn’t this undermine the whole “no barter” thing?

“You could then hang on to it and drill with it until you were done”

What if I wanted to decorate it? What if I wanted to add a few feature and keep my invention for future use? Will there still be many different models? I would assume most people would just order the best drill… unless there was a waiting list, which create a whole new set of problems (my work is more important than yours!)

“The 97% would be doing everything else”

This is a common misconception. Intelligent people often project their intelligence onto others, but you fail to understand the extent to which ordinary people don’t share your ambition for learning and progress. Half the population has an IQ below 100. There are societies in the world today where people can earn income without having to work and based on my un-scientific observations derived from first and second hand experiences, roughly 2/3 of people in such circumstances won’t even lift a finger let alone actively participate in “everything else”. You will not condition them through propaganda and a culture shift to be more responsible, attempts to create a new man have always failed. This will be no different.

“The computers”

Every time something doesn’t make sense you guys throw in a computer and claim it will solve the difficult problems… That, my friend, is a cop-out. Somebody still needs to program these computers.

 
Comment by BPT
2011-02-27 12:46:47

I see you’ve extended your “No True Scotsman” game to new sites now.

Why can’t you answer or even discuss these fundamental questions about the theories behind RBE?

1. How can the system allocate scare resources efficiently without a price system?

2. How will people who don’t want to participate in this society be handled?

3. Who decides where to draw the line with regard to sharing? For example, I have a couple dozen pairs of underwear in a drawer right out that in theory could be shared, but you find this idea unappealing. Maybe I find this acceptable, but find it undesirable to share a drill. Why is your opinion on sharing valid, and mine unreasonable and selfish?

4. What happens when the resource allocation system is wrong?

5. What happens when people stray off the “approved” path with regard to child rearing, resource usage, or any other number of issues?

 
Comment by BPT
2011-02-27 12:47:52

My above comment is intended as a reply to cr0ft. I agree with the article itself.

 
Comment by cr0ft
2011-02-28 11:43:14

I’m not saying it’s complicated. I’m saying it’s so simple you think it is complex.

You even seem to think my comments are complex, where they are extremely straightforward and simple.

You apply all kinds of complexity and misunderstandings to it because of that.

The 97% would be doing everything else. Or some of them would be doing nothing. Either way, they’d live their lives according to their own capabilities, as long as the 3% produced the goods needed by all there would be no pressures on the rest. Most of them (that could) would still contribute. Those who couldn’t would still live worthy lives, unlike today.

And the computers aren’t complex either. They’re systems to do accounting. That’s it. They keep track of what is there. Supremely simple in concept. They’re not the overlords – they’re the janitors.

 
Comment by cr0ft
2011-02-28 11:44:29

Look, BPT, I get that you’re in love with me (or is it hate) but are you actually going to be following me around the Internet to comment on my comments? It’s getting pretty creepy there dude.

 
Comment by Traigo
2011-02-28 19:47:41

Obviously, up until today we have all been extremely influenced by the monetary system that Zeitgeist Moving Forward refers to and in more ways than one. Because of that accumulated influence, we each view our world with an economic bias.

To be candid, when I receive a paycheck in exchange for my labor or a small return on one of my investments I have no first hand understanding at all of where the money comes from. None. I have no idea where it goes when I hand it to the McDonald’s employee in exchange for a hamburger. It all just seems like a trumped up game that I apparently don’t know or haven’t been told all of the rules to because clearly I don’t win at it very often. That being the case, I have technically survived the money game up until this point and am more open than ever to a better game if there can be one. Better yet, I’d rather it not be a game. I’d rather it be quite a bit better than a game considering that lives are at stake.

To me, those who have bickered about The Zeitgeist Movement (wether for or against the implementation of an RBE) all too often fail to be constructive. We need to concentrate our mental efforts on being more productive toward a sustainable economic solution.

“Does each city maintain their own master computer’s source code?”

If that question is so important to you, then perhaps you can apply your concern toward implementing the computer systems we use.

“Who are the programmers?”

I don’t yet see why you couldn’t be one of the programmers if you put your mind to it.

“There is still no adequate answer for distribution of newly invented goods in an equitable manner.”

Then think of some answers because it’s not exactly rocket science and perhaps your solutions may more than hold up to real world conditions.

“There is still no adequate answer for who controls the master global resource allocator.”

Sounds like you might want to have a say in the implementation of such a thing and more power to you.

“There is still no adequate answer for dealing with people who refuse to submit to this system.”

A two day old baby will not have the aptitude to “submit to the system” any more than a 50 year old man who doesn’t want to even think about what a resource-based economy is. That doesn’t mean that an RBE can’t sustain the needs of both the 2 day old and the 50 year old much better than a monetary system every could come close to.

 
Comment by Human
2011-03-05 15:40:17

Thank you. Thank you for taking the time out of your daily schedule to consider the ideas in this film. So long as we a capable to refute or agree with these claims and allegations can we collectively take a step towards change. i commend each and every one of you for being inspired by this motivational piece of work. Investing your energy for or against will manifest inevitable change, which spell both chaos and peace. Plant a seed with love or hate and it will grow regardless. Plant an acre of seeds with love or hate and it will grow regardless. All that encompasses the ‘nature’ of things is good at self-preservation. Your need to worry about such universalities has nothing to do with it. Your need to believe in something like this or that is futile and will ultimately lead to undoing everything you are for. Everything you are for empowers you. Everything you are against weakens you. You are a self-aware entity that has the capacity to transcend all that you are! You are capable of so much more! Why not start after taking your next breath and even more so for each sequential breath that you take for granted? You’ve got to be stupefied every time you consider the complexity of you inborn capacity to breathe. You don’t have enough time to worry about being upset at the people and things that have propagated this illusory experience you might call YOUR life. Nor do you have enough time to neatly change the universe to favor your self-created belief system. Remember that these are YOUR perceptions that YOU are responsible for because YOU choose to believe in the things YOUVE seen and heard. i may convince myself through logical analysis that the sky is blue, but the necessity for using a word like that to describe it to you denies everything that it could potentially be in your eyes. Rather than feeding a starving man, teach him how to fish so that he can feed himself for a lifetime and therefore teach everyone who makes the time to see him do likewise. When it comes down to it we all just want to be happy. The road to happiness can be reached when you recognize your self-worth. You are worthy of everything you can feed yourself be it negative or positive; it’s all you choice. And for the same reason You can never arrive at happiness while looking outside, for happiness can only come for within yourself. It’s wonderful how one nine thousand six hundred seconds can raise such spirited rhetoric. This enumerates to all how passionate we can become when we invest our belief in matters that can potentially offer some kind of compensation or fulfillment of expectation. Is it feasible to think that your attachments to expectation can also destroy all the good that you may desire to represent? Do what feels right for the sake of doing it, not for a belief in the necessity to massage the ego or the like. You don’t have to compulsively question everything outside of you in order to validate it. You can grow out of this excuse for living when you understand that you are in control of everything you are for. Your need to describe it to others just tells them how special you think you are and has nothing to do with what you are telling them. You don’t need to instruct a newborn how to breath- life takes care of the ineffable matters. The very life that we desperately hold on to can be a belief as well, so try to treat it that way if it works for you, don’t get worked up over theory’s, ideology, dogma, religion and pragmatism because no matter what you always have the choice to choose peace instead. You can’t arrive at truth because you literally are a manifestation of truth and everything contrary to that is mere conception. All i know is that i know nothing. i expect everyone to live for themselves or others in order to be happy for themselves which encompasses the process to fulfilling that contentment. Happiness is a perception; a very simple concept. All it takes is that you truly believe in yourself and your pristine right to exist. You disservice yourself when you fight for what Jacque Frescos believes in. i expect you to understand that all the unnamed hero’s in history died for this knowledge to reach your eyes and ears. These people will never ask you to take the torch for their sake. They want you to live life for everything you encompass out of a genuine interest so that the integrity of all can be sustained and improved. This is the greatest achievement you can possibly award yourself with. Jacques war in essence is not with others. It’s the battle over self. The same war has been waged since time immemorial. He is telling you to be in control of your universe and not that of another. If it rains on your parade, well believe that you are in control of that as well. Don’t be immobilized by your excuses and perceptions. Countless people and experiences preach these things to you every day. Why bother yourself with being upset at Jacque and company? The universe is perfect; even you desire to improve it! Don’t wait for the whole world to catch up to you, for it will consume you. Don’t even expect the world to catch up to you, for it never will. Be your universe. Now! How can you wage a war for peace when peace has been inside you all along? i am of the human race and i Live on the planet earth! Don’t settle for anything less than you can be. Make your life a masterpiece!
I have always been regretting that i was not as wise as the day i was born. – Henry David Thoreau
Every generation laughs at the old fashioned, but follows religiously the new. – Henry David Thoreau
Loving Kindness to all that is

 
Comment by marcus
2011-03-27 23:50:13

You have absolutely no idea if its way better or not. You are ASSuming. It’s a THEORY. A theory full of socialist propaganda.

Nothing more.

Get away from your socialist education and entitlement thoughts that anyone owes you anything if you do not work for it, then hop into the real world, becoming personally responsible for yourself and your family, get a job, enjoy your work, and enjoy life more because you are providing for yourself and your family, thus gain more self respect in the process.

Hey, in the process you might actually obtain some ambition and drive, by saving your money and/or opening a business with what you learn, EARNING your way into the ability to obtain all that you desire in life. Yea, I know, what a novelty!

A government big enough to give you everything you want is powerful enough to take everything you have.

Whether you realize it or not your true friend and our common bonds are freedom, liberty, and inalienable creator-endowed rights.

Without those you can have noting you desire or value in this world.

Nothing.

 
Comment by marcus
2011-03-28 00:36:00

That said, I know we live on a planet with finite resources, so I am not against a resource based EXISTANCE, so long as we have inalienable rights, freedom and liberty.

I am concerned with how all this gets started, if it get started.

Our current system isn’t just going to end. There needs to be a transformation period.

To get to the RBE, it will take money, influence, and power.

Who holds an abundance of those 3 things?

The ruling elite and their minions and dupes. Without their “assistance” it will never happen unless you get rid of them and their influence.

They have been at their game of world domination, power, and population control for thousands of years. Just research the “Mysteries of Babylon”. And no, it does not matter what YOU believe in regard to religion. What matter is those who have money, influence, and power believe, and they ahve the belief that man can become God through knowledge, and the big occult hiddent secret is how to control the worlds population. Its about pure power over the people. That’s the elites end game. Just like it was hundreds and thousands of years ago with Kings and Pharohs.

Considering that, and the fact that they hold all the “assets” you need to get this RBE rolling, don’t you think they will demand some “say” in how you progress since they will be bankrolling it ?

Like for instance, force a “board of directors” with their agenda ?

or demand their indoctrinated, manipulated, or bribed “scientists” be a major part of the plan, with their agenda ?

or their “programmers” be a part of programming the computers with their agenda ?

Don’t forget the indoctrinated ones who have already been through the elites socialist education system. Jaques Fresco and Peter Joseph included !

I think we need to act and think in a sustainable fashion, however The Venus Project isnt it. Its flawed. WAY FLAWED. Neither is the bastardization of sustainability being rammed through as legislation with alterior motives most governments, the UN, WHO, WWF, and other elite controlled organisations.

Everyone has an agenda.

You need to rid the world of the corrupt influences before even thinking about moving on to an RBE, else all you will enable is their agenda to come to pass faster.

 
Comment by carenza
2011-03-29 16:21:26

Hi guys

this movie starts very good, and has several intersting points.

lets start by forgeting the delusional fantasy of the resource based economy …. it snot worth the time. what is worth the time is to analise the current money fundamentals and the money to assets chain. here is the true problem!

if money would be backup by … say gold, no money would be created out of nothing, this is sweet but slows down economiesas accumulated riches take time to come back into circulation. therefor … debt systems, now they work fine based on 2 assumptions:

1-debpt is not created to repay debt!!! this is the biggest issue

2 – private banks are small enough to go bankrupt without endagering a whole economy!

current crisis is due to these precise 2 issues, banks are to big to die as result of competition (the most fundamental law of our economy, “competition will set thing straight by its own”)

and violation of point 1, if i am a bank with access to the print shop or printshop alike mechanisms then we are in trouble, the speculation products such as derivatives are quite toxic… but when you allow derivatives over derivatives that have no real phisical meaning … you can make a endless loop of money fabrication out of air …. yes i owe a lot … print it and i will give it back! …

to think about it, limit the size of big corporate banks so that if they colapse the competitive nature takes its course, or forbid dept to pay debt with out being asset/commodity backed up

… i am really afraid of a future of hyper inflation or the derivative bubble..

 
Comment by David V.
2011-04-09 23:06:24

Well said. Some people will always look for problems rather than solutions. The whole time I was reading that I was wondering why the writer wouldn’t want to help figure his questions out rather than just slam someone. Why wouldn’t all of us want to help create a new world that was even close to what was portrayed in the film? Why isn’t there worldwide urgency for change? I mean look around!! My GOD!!! The sad truth is we have to show the ones who care enough to open there minds to the possibilities.

 
Comment by Gobsmaked
2011-04-10 04:59:58

The world has many problems (and many great things too) but the Venus Project and it’s ilk is not the answer.

Engineers are often portrayed as neglecting the human element, the reality of human behaviour in their solutions and The Venus Project fails for that reason and many others.

I feel sad that so many people believe in us and them. Us the good guys and them the bad guys. We each need to look in the mirror and improve ourselves first.

But it is easier to blame someone else I guess, preferably someone who cannot be defined or actually held accountable, a nebulous concept is best for blame. So much to say but too hard to try to argue. Views polarise on these comment forums, views very rarely change. It is so obvious that any utopia is not utopia for all.

Haven’t all you believers read Brave New World? What is different from The Venus Project?

 
Comment by ranza
2011-04-16 11:55:54

First I would like to comment the author of the article which is obviously a troll and gets a lot of attention from the web because of this article and he completely doesn’t deserve it.

Now Gobsmaked, you’re right that we need to fix ourselves.
There’s plenty of people who would advocate that science and technology haven’t made us benefit from it’s wonders.
There are also people who claim that scientific method is not the only that works.

The Brave New World is another book, another media that tries to portrait the future. How pathetic were our attempts to portrait the future in the past? I think it’s self explanatory.

Sure, we’ll have problems but does problems will be different from ours.
It’s good that people are sceptical about new ideas, but this very idea is exactly about becoming more sceptical and oriented on good solutions instead of the ones applied irrationally because someone says-so.

Now imagine for a moment that you’re a new born member of our new Venus Project society and someone tells you that hundreds of years ago there existed a society where labor was dominant. Where people work hard from the early morning till 4pm just to get enough food and money for their family, creating some over advertised products, then tired going back to their families, eat, go to sleep and wake up the next morning to do the whole thing again. Over the weekends the same guy relentlessly would try to get his health back and try to get the fun out of life, lost in the pursue of money.
-Insanity, that’s the only thing that cames to your mind.

Of course right now there are now people that are more successful than others and have more control than others and those are the people who fear the change. This is why the top of the hierarchy has to fall first and those I would identify as governments and big companies taking hold of power supply. Therefore if we would make the governments open and provide the source of free energy, then we would make our first step.

 
Comment by Samyo
2011-04-27 06:53:26

Is it fear that prompts such an article .. Fear that you may indeed be incorrect and that the belief systems of your parents, and the one that you have bought into are in actuality a lie.

Fear that as a humanity we may evolve beyond the childish belief systems that permeate this planet.

How would it feel to wake up tomorrow morning and see that everything you believed to be true was in fact not so.

As a collective, humanity is ignorant and childish, it wallows in fear failing to ask itself the essential question of it origin and its place in the Universe.

The collective ego knows that it is a lie and when someone offers it the truth, its pain response is denial and anger.

For the species to survive it must evolve beyond its current damaged paradigm.

It would seem to me all the Venus Project is doing is offering an alternative to the sick abuse of the current system, and instead of embracing the possibility of a brighter future and raising your own awareness to a new level,you seek to drag the idea back into the deluded quagmire of the current reality.

Is that the sort of world you would want for your children?

 
Comment by Matthew Tysoe
2011-04-27 15:11:09

This will only happen after WW3 – A bit like how humanity rose from the ashes in Star Trek history. Is wealth material or is it knowledge and a pioneering spirit?

 
Comment by peter pan
2011-05-11 09:44:35

It is simple. Wë are i????? ? system that has been tried and failed miserably for all humans.

?????r?????? is another option that can be better 70% and ?ø???† even tried.

Its just like goal line technology and FIFA and football. ????? technology works,its ?????r?????? †? be used and developed †? maximum efficiency but because FIFA doesn’t want †? lose its power of controlling outcome of games and competitions it says ?? due †? corruption!

Only ? fool will try something and see it fail and continue doing it! W??? fire burns your hand you d?????ø????’† continue sticking it back inside!

Wë need †? be courageous and change. Only those benefitting from this sick system w????????? ? few want †? decide ????? future of ????? rest, w?? †? die and w?? †? live, w?? is worthy of earth and w?? isn’t, only those will support this sick system!

 
Comment by peter pan
2011-05-11 10:56:44

It is simple. Wë are in a system that has been tried and failed miserably for all humans.there is another option that can be better at least 70% and not even tried.
Its just like goal line technology and FIFA and football. The technology works,its there †o be used and developed †o maximum efficiency but because FIFA doesn’t want †o lose its power of controlling outcome of games and competitions it says NO due †o corruption!
Only a fool will try something and see it fail and continue doing it! When fire burns your hand you don’† continue sticking it back inside!
Wë need †o be courageous and change. Only those benefitting from this sick system where a few want †o decide the future of the rest, who †o die and who †o live, who is worthy of earth and who isn’t, only those will support this sick system

 
Comment by Tony
2011-05-13 09:02:20

Agreed. There is no perfection, only evolution. No matter what the flaws of this system are, it is undoubtedly much better than what we are doing to ourselves now. If The Venus Project only succeeded at solving half the worlds problems, wouldn’t it still be well worth it? Also, many of the questions above seem tainted with the assumption that people cannot be trusted. Currently this is the case, people cannot be trusted, but only because we’ve never lived in a world where there is no need to be evil. Otherwise, I appreciate the critique. It emphasizes that we should not assume that no one has “the answer”. But I still think TZM is the best solution that has been presented so far.

 
Comment by Tony
2011-05-13 09:12:49

By “agreed” I was referring to the comment made by tom cruiseisgay. The first comment.

 
Comment by Pieter de Beer
2011-05-26 17:38:20

i would like to say to the author of this post, thank you, at least, for not taking things at face value, and for understanding that a RBE is not as simple as it sounds.
I have been carefully studying various alternative economies for several years, and thus far, The Venus Project’s Resource Based Economy is (without the human ability for calamity) almost perfect.
but although the Economic Theory is sound, it’s presentation has left some questions:

1st of all, only one person has ever studied a Resource Based Economy in depth. This person is Mr. Fresco. As part of his study of a RBE he had to make an in-depth study of the current system (not that hard, plenty of documentation) and found that scarcity drives it. Very few people can explain scarcity as well as he can, which is why it bothers me that his plans are not open source. in fact, venus project global chapter members are not even officially linked to the venus project because of a lack of knowledge about the project.

2nd what many of fresco’s followers dont seem to understand is that a RBE can only be established after the collapse of the the monetary system, and he himself says (after 50 years) that he cannot tell when this might happen, only that it has begun and will speed up as time goes by. This means an undefined period of absolute horror and misery for the entire planet, until eventually, desperate for a better answer, we can turn to The Venus Project for our salvation and adoration.

3rd, and probably most telling for me, this period of chaos and anarchy could easily be avoided by planning a transition into a resource based economy from a monetary system in half the detail the venus project claims to have on a RBE. Fresco says it cant be done, that it is too complex, and must break down on its own. Many have disagreed, posting several “Transition Plans” in various levels of detail. I wish i could link them here, but whenever i searched for one of these plans a second time, i usually found them missing. those that remained were the shoddier sort and each had a wide swath of abuse from various members of Fresco’s global fanbase. I myself have written such a proposal, mailed it to the Venus Project recently, have been told it will be reviewed and currently await their answer.
and to ensure that my plan cannot be deleted, i have blogged it here http://robcayman.tumblr.com/TransitionSummary and several other places

to those who were so quick to denounce the author of this blog, i hope what i have written here has at least given you pause to think, because isn’t that, after all, what zeigeist and the venus project showed us? please feel welcome to visit my blog read some more

 
Comment by Marshall Kilman
2011-06-10 16:23:37

Right on…I so much agree with David V.; after watching the film, even if I don’t 100% agree with all the concepts introduced, specifically playing down use of the military and having religion a part of everyday life, we must look for a better way of doing things…I honestly got excited about the prospects of the future by design; the overall conclusions hardly need to be addressed because we know human nature always brings forth diversity, that’s our brand. The visual is what sells and it sold me, count me in!

 
Comment by mugen
2011-06-26 10:00:29

I think RBE will create more chaos…. Whatever it is, I can see that human being are getting intelligent…. Yes, I can see that more people are consent about the world than before… I think we are now at transformation era… Dispite, a lot of problem’s and conflict we are still surviving… WW3 is impossible… I think scientist should be president and prime ministers… No need to create another system, after certain while this RBE will also create problems.. We should destory religion and reduce population.

 
Comment by Shadyzz
2011-07-06 18:51:39

Actually, I’ve been studying this for over 20 years and the author is ABSOLUTELY correct and for one VERY specific reason…

HUMAN NATURE!

While the ideas are great to think about and would be awesome if everyone would submit and give up their “privileged” lives, it won’t happen.

Currency, control and “ownership” has been in every society since the dawn of time. YOu’ll say no, but I can argue it all day long. Tribal communities since the dawn of time slaughtered each other over “property” and “resources”, it’s no different now, there are just infinitely fewer owning “tribes” in the mix.

The REAL answer is to go back to a TRUE FREE MARKET SYSTEM… back to how the original constitution presented it and not let it be subverted through corruption.

A much better solution is to create rules that allow us to eliminate politicians IMMEDIATELY when they fuck up, NOT to pay them so much and not to give them lifetime pensions.

Then and only then would stupid decisions which keep people down stop being made and we could & would truly start to flourish as a species again.

And that’s just ONE angle on it from that perspective, there are infinitely more.

And to note your “drill” analogy… I’d LOVE to see what would happen if you had a major breakdown in your home, let’s say a pipe broke and you needed a drill ASAP… but you had to wait 3 weeks for another drill to get in to the exchange store… yeah, that’s go over real well!

Right now, the people who want or use drills regularly, buy them, those who don’t, don’t, and they pay someone to do it, it works REALLY well that way. It’s called CHOICE.

 
Comment by Leonard
2011-07-22 04:15:18

Just to address the previous post:

The vast majority of people don’t own professional tools not only because the individual usefulness doesn’t justify the expense but, objectively, it’s illogical to own something you need only once in a blue moon.

It makes no sense to own one just for the very unlikely event that a pipe might break in your house. Furthermore if it takes 3 weeks to find a tool to get it fixed there must be something seriously inefficient in the supply chain. A flaw that would have to be analysed and improved immediately. Yes, you need manpower to eliminate such flaws. Educated and competent manpower first of all, with a logistics and IT background.

The next question would be, why did the pipe break in a first place? Knowing that pipes where failure is not option do exist, manufactured to last centuries, like in power plants or the manufacturing industry. There are many goods which are manufactured with only marginal differences in terms of resource use but some are built to last (such as professional appliances) and some are made to fail within a fairly short life span (like most consumer appliances). There is enough evidence that most goods CAN be made to last for much longer than they currently do with virtually the same consumption of resources. Of course, you need experts for that with an engineering and physics background for instance, plus the machines.

The solution in both examples might actually be straightforward and quick if the competence is there. HOWEVER applying the mindset of our current system, we know that this is almost exclusively a matter of cost, aka money. Money can be made in such scenarios and sometimes quite a lot. In the status quo you have several redundant firms that will compete for the job by undercutting each other by price first of all, not necessarily by the highest quality solution and very certainly not by the most efficient and sustainable one. Then there might be aggressive investors in the background who want to win the project by all means and not least the BS-ing middlemen like marketing. They all want their piece of the pie. At the end of the day, the job could have been done by a couple of highly competent experts in a couple of hours. Instead, the contractor will waste countless hours (and money and time for the client) by placing a bunch of semi-seasoned and underpaid trainees on the job who are billed with large margins for the company. As for the result, well, it’s usually a crap shot. At the end of the day the customer will have paid a bunch of people who have absolutely nothing to do with the service or the product itself. Especially irritating if the result is rubbish. The market system places high bets on the ignorance and forgetfulness of people (and so do politicians by the way).

That’s REALISM in a money based economy.

 
Comment by Chris
2011-08-10 17:13:35

Ya just to tell the guy who did the review. All that stuff about the hypothetical second earth doesn’t really have to have everything thought up since it can never ever happen anyways ever. It’s just to give ideas and different thoughts about whats going on in the world today. So quite bitching about the minor details and get your head outta your ass.

 
Comment by Martin
2011-09-21 18:02:57

This movie is fucking scary. Its like watching THX 1138… So thats where all “conspiracy teories ” end… Not while am alive… bbrrrrr

 
Comment by Soulcyon
2011-09-26 14:31:47

@point,

You seem to be judging the RBE system wrongly. There is inequality in the world today BECAUSE of the complex barter system we use, so there is no way you can assume the same inequality with a radically different system.

Unless this is put into practice, we will never know its real downfalls. I find the RBE system to be flawless if employed correctly, it will bring on a new mindset of what is to be a human on Earth and probably give a reason to why we live on this planet. (wink wink @ circle of life)

 
Comment by stupidblogger^
2012-05-14 17:39:44

its easy to say an idea will never work, and bash it untill others are convinced to bash it too.

but its hard to stand up for something you beleive in, especially when hundreds of people are trying to make you feel like your opinion isnt worth a damn.

But wait a second… does this stupid blogger know anything about the true meaning of an economy? does he know the true nature of human life? did he spend thousands studying at the most prestigious university? NO! all that this ignorant “troll” is saying is that society can never change because we will always need money, and if we cant advance any further than this must be our utopia, where millions are denied the necessities of life, and thousands upon thousand must suffer the horrors of life without money.

money is NOT an essential resource
clean water IS
why is money supposedly more valuable?
… because we said so …
why is a piece of paper with a value of 62 cents valued at 100$ because we drew some fancy pictures?
… because we said so …

money is just an idea, a means to an end. we are nearing that end. Money was INVENTED by humans to encourage labourers to work for them, so they could use the money to further better humanity, but in an age of automation little jobs will be left, less money will be up for grabs, less products will be bought and less progress will be made unless we CHANGE OUR WAYS!

not for ourselves, not for our kids or their kids, but for our planet, our home.

Nature is a dictatorship, you can either agree with it, or die. it is the way of life.

P.S. if you’re so convinced the monetary system works than maybe you should start trying to pay off that 10 trillion dollar debt you owe the world.. oh right…

you cant.

have a nice life ;)

 
Comment by stupidblogger^
2012-05-14 17:48:06

and fyi, TZM and TVP are 2 seperate entities that collaborated, minorly on 2 projects. the ending of the partnership was based on the fact that TZM was going in a different direction than TVP wanted to go.

if youre gonna bash TVP, bash TVP. if youre gonna bash TZM leave TVP out of it.

 
Comment by stupidblogger^
2012-05-14 17:50:02

so bomb all churches and comit mass genocide is what youre insuing?

and this will solve problems……..how?

 
Comment by zach
2012-08-08 01:28:48

Humans suck. Choice is great but most people wouldn’t even realize there were fewer options in a RBE. Why is it necessary to have the choice of 15 gas stations, 10 clothing stores, 30 fast food joints, 10 movie theaters, 72 bars, 400 cars, and 5 airlines?

It’s always the same shitty services at various prices.

Why would anyone have to wait for a drill? There would be many drills made. Why would there not be more made in a shortage? Why would a pipe break? All things are tested, updated, and serviced as needed. With proper planning all things are possible. Why not try to imagine a perfect society? It is possible to achieve the best of humans even if it isn’t perfect. We are all on the same planet. We are not going anywhere else soon. We can grow enough food, collect and clean enough water, and build enough homes for everyone…why not start there?

Help correct an idea that is flawed to make it better, not destroy the hope that could make it great.

 
Comment by Fearb
2012-11-19 17:34:08

Thank you human! I was starting to become disheartened with the rhetoric, until you pointed out the simple truth of it. Strive for perfection and it will find us, do nothing and we are lost. Making mistakes is not a bad thing, we learn by them every day. By seaking out answers we will enevitably find better ways to improve what came before, that doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth the effort.

 
Comment by Noah Long
2013-03-04 02:08:50

I’d like to thank the author for this article. Without your hateful energy put towards this topic, all of the positive energy from these amazing responses may not have ever reached anyone’s thoughts.

Now, I’d like to thank everyone who took the time to share all of your very intelligent and insightful facts and opinions. You have all inspired me to become more involved in whatever transition is coming, giving me the drive to re-educate myself with the internet and adapt to new ways of promoting these wonderful ideas to people who aren’t yet ready to hear our system’s scary truths.

I’ve come from a relatively ignorant/sheltered dance/athletic upbringing/professional life. These life experiences have given me constant exposure to peers in creating, collaborative and vulnerable scenarios and the knowledge of how the human body interacts with the laws of physics it’s governed with. These experiences helped promote intuitive and logical thought patterns which inevitably led me to TZM and TVP because of the questions I was asking about my societal surroundings which weren’t making sense anymore.
I’ve been following TVP, TZM and Peter Joseph specifically for about two months now and I find their concepts and understanding of their goals and proposals very inspiring. Their presentations for possible solutions have spawned your well thought out questions and constructive criticisms which are all signs of the change currently taking stride. Without this action (your inquiries) we would never start to become greater, hence never exist, and I thank you all for taking the time to participate in the manors you deem fit.

We are all one, under one roof, loving similar ways and sharing similar things. We all yearn for those feel good emotions that come from relevant and understandable educations, basic levels of survival (room/board) and a positive social structure that thrives on passion, collaboration and creativity.

Please believe me when I say I’m mad with and scared of what TZM and TVP has brought to my attention. Being lied to and blindly manipulated is tyranny after all… but allowing ourselves out of our current molds is the only way for us to gain greater perspectives through fresh eyes, like a Butterfly being reborn from its cocoon. As Peter Joseph says at the end of every ‘Culture in Decline’ episode:

PJ: “We are all agents and victims, in a culture in decline”

I do not put blame on anyone, including the 1% for any of our current problems. We are all a large misguided group of players, who only play because we inherited it all and didn’t know any different. Once we all understand our global state, playing will no longer be an option and substantial change will become our only priority. Until then, we will always still be agents and victims of this culture.

‘Culture in Decline’ can be found on YouTube, there are 4 episodes to date. I recommend it, lots of interesting information to analyze so I recommend watching them more than once.

Until we pull back from our everyday problems and take a look at the underlying reasons why we have those problems, we will never be free of them, EVER.

Lots of love,
Noah Long

 
Comment by Peter Olofson
2013-07-04 17:15:19

You are getting buried in the weeds! The movement is encouraging people to think about this at a macro, not micro level. To move from a market/monetary system to a RBE is a giant paradigm shift. First you have to get buy-in to the concept at a macro level before sweating the details. I think you have lost the plot entirely.

 
Comment by Question
2014-03-06 13:38:01

Really? Most of what I’ve seen about Zeitgeist movement is flawed due to one fallacy:

Humanity

You must first overcome human nature to create the change in the world you wish to seek. While most of the historic information may be relevant and the plight of the people is valid… the solution does not address the “I” or the “ego”.

I don’t know why I just wasted 5 minutes of my life to post a comment to a group of people who are holding onto a concept so strongly. Meh.

 
Comment by Flaggefrosk
2014-04-01 06:01:24

I would suggest you search for Jacque Fesco – Human nature on YouTube.
Moast of what we think of as human nature and behavior is learned.

 
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