Zeitgeist: Addendum and The Venus Project hoax

you make some very excellent points and this was definitely the counter i was looking for after seeing the movie.

however, it doesn’t change the entertainment value or feeling of hope that they could be correct. as they stated as well as something i have always acknowledged about the world; all new ideas/revolutions have been rejected by society until they are proven plausible.

it really could all be bullshit and not work, but apparently so is our current system.

the biggest obstacle is overcoming propaganda (of all kinds) and the elite who are truly in control of everything. I don’t see how anyone could deny these two things exist.

and i agree completely with you on this, because as soon as “the venus project” came up i was like,
really this is a freakin joke!!

talk about a new world order…only with benifits!!
and those of us who don’t by it, well then what happens too all of us???

everybody needs to wake up!

(Excuse me, for my bad English, but try to bare with me)

“they want power. A resource based system does not eliminate that desire”

Actually, now you miss the point. The point is, that if everyone has everything they need, there is no way that someone can affect others by more resources/money. True “democracy” in this way can be archived trough direct decisions, without representatives. With representatives and scarcity, there is always a problem with bribery of some kind. Few men can be bribed, millions cant.

“If resources become abundant, money does not lose value, it gains value as it allows you to consume much more.”

You are wrong here. Money is means to exchange scare resources. If resources are unlimited, there is no need for money. Key to unlimited resources is energy. If energy is practically free and clean, you can pretty much do anything with it.

The assumption that people will consume insanely if they have the means, is pretty much false too. One doesn’t eat or drink more than he needs. You cannot play more than one PSP at the time. One could argue that, “What about land? Space is limited, there is no way that everyone can have x number of mansions and beach houses?”. Well yes, that is true, but one cannot be more than one place at the time. In true democracy, where everyone can vote without other pressures (food, income, security, etc.) but space, that will be divided evenly quite fast. By default, people doesn’t want to be alone. That will drive people to cities, and in cities, there is no way, that everyone can have mansions. That is the reality, and it is hard to believe that people wouldn’t adjust to that. But in this system people could book a beach house for them selves.

One thing though should be issued, is the class system, what this system will inevitable will create / uphold. But, as sad it is, not everyone are smart nor no one knows everything about everything. By this reality of matters, there will be class. Some just are smarter than others. But that is the way it should be. Why should a voice from a man who has spent his life playing video games count in the matter (let’s say) of nano-technology? Or other matters outside of his/her experience? Of course it shouldn’t. Of course people who contribute most to society, will gain at least, more respect and fame than others. If that will create better accommodation or faster way to get technology, so be it. It is very small price to pay, if compared to current system.

Wow. Zeitgeist may skip from point to point but you LEAP from them.

Watch Zeitgeist about 3 or 4 more times and maybe.. just maybe you’ll start to get it. Then re-write this circular-rambling-on of yours.

(First take an intro-journalism course at your local community college.. and remember in our society you have to pay for it.. in the Zeitgeist society you could go to any school and learn for free because it betters all of us to be informed.. the energy used would be geo-thermal and infinite.. and people like you would wake up and stop sucking on that American dream of wealth, power, and prestige)

I haven’t actually watched the video, but I’ll do what I can to counter your arguments insofar as I understand them…

1) “I don’t want to believe you!”, huh? That’s nice. Come up with something you could possibly need that wouldn’t be a matter of importance for a decent number of people. Go on, try it. I’m fairly certain you’ll prove unable.

2) More scarcity argumentation. Yeah, sure, resources aren’t technically unlimited, but the idea is that with a virtually inexhaustible source of energy the limited resources can be reused in any number of ways. It’s called “recycling.” Google that.

3) The problem with America isn’t over-consumption, actually. The vast majority of people don’t eat more than they need. The problem is that they eat the wrong things. Now, it is certainly true that America consumes too much in the way of energy, but that’s a matter that has already been covered.

4) What is lost can be found, what is broken can be repaired.

5) It’s slavery? Then I guess you admit that you are currently enslaved by money. Whether or not you get to own a beach house is only a question for the type of people who are adapted to current society.

Also, it’s always possible that advancing technology could make real space irrelevant in the wake of virtual reality–just have a virtual beach house and achieve the same experience.

6) You can trade respect now? That’s a new one. I’d like for you to explain how that would work.

As far as centralized power goes, though, you have a real argument. I don’t really understand how that system is supposed to work just from the exchange in these comments.

Dear point,
It is my understanding that you seem preoccupied by the fear of loosing your freedom which is enabling you to grasp the true meening of this video. No one is trying to prevent you from marrying Jessica Alba no one is preventing you from spending the winter on an Mediterreanian island. In fact the point being presented is quite the opposite. Every should have the chance of asking for Jessicas hand in marrage as everyone should be able to reahc the med whenever they please. As far as actually marrying Jessica, You cant do that now (and if you can kudos)so what would you be missing in the VP. But lets be realistic, say nessecity declares that in order for everyone to have a home everyones home must be a hundred feet. are you arguing that you would rather have two hundred feet of land and leave someone homeless than simply be happy with what you do have? And yes the population is evergrowing and in response we will take measures to insure everyone remains fed or we will take steps to reduce the population as China is doing today. I understand that these courses of action may take some of your freedom but if its for the better of all living creatures on earth isnt it worth it? Do I really need the freedom to eat or drink myself to death?

stop flingin poo – it’s not what an enlightened human would do.

the above commentaries mostly ignore an issue not fully illuminated by the video; the crisis of conciousness in the perspective of needed fundamental alterations to human behaviour.

possibly fatal to any understanding and acceptance of what is proposed, are assumptions about how humans will act, ignoring that human perspectives and thus their behaviors, change markedly in different environments. Thus human nature – illusory for purposes of this discourse – cannot be informed or presumed by conditioned, static or hidebound perceptions such as form the premises above.

the commentaries are rife with unfounded presumptions about a static quality called human nature. from the outset i heard proponents in the video talking about a crisis of concsiouness and a fundamental change in individuals’ outlooks and behaviours. This is attainable, though the video doesn’t suggest how. I have changed fundamental outlooks and behaviours and have witnessed such change in others, from predominant self centeredness to periods of sustained altruism.

The content was fascinating; the message of hope was strong, and it’s a much more authentic pitch for change than Obama has made.

i think some people here have missed the point and are arguing on irellavant issues, all the points that the people who doubt this article are missing the important point and objective.first off it is assumed the resource of energy is unlimited. Secondly everyone has what they need and equally (you could even say in excess), previously this was flawed in comunisum, but in comunisum everyone is still enslaved and working repetitve jobs. Technology enables us to do this, THINK ABOUT IT, everyone will get a new and upcoming technology very quicky due to MACHINES producing them at massive quanitities. anyone can do ANYTHING they want, sit on the beach, get drunk, who gives a damn. Technology will enable us to do this and its not unrealistic at all, this isnt some crazy futuristic idea its happening today. I myself am losing my job to automation. But thats not the point, in this system people do what they want, what their passion drives them to do. Be it building a city, constructing a space ship, or playing video games all day. Passion drives the people, and no-one works hard, because we all do what we love and we have machines to do the repetitve boring things. So yes everyone will buy into this society, who wouldent want everything to be done for them, and there are people whos passion is to construct machines of such huge capabilites. Juyst because its not yours doesnt mean its not someone elses.

First off, allow me to acknowledge that those in favor as well as those not infavor for what the venus project offers all make very valid arguments. That being said i will analyze some of the previous comments.

“I want to watch the world cup finals live. Will all 6 billion people be able to do that? I want to marry Jessica Alba, how will the Venus Project accomplish that? I want to spend every winter on my Mediterranean island. What is your point, exactly?”

I believe Augustus Osari asked you to “Come up with something you could possibly need”. What all humans need merely include food, sleep, shelter, and sexual relase. One of the key objectives the venus project seeks to acheive is providing the mass majority with the essentials. What one may want at any point in time, while it may very well be of great importance, it will forever be secondary to the basic needs.

“It’s an intriguing concept, but I’m not convinced that we can eliminate all consumption of resources entirely..”

I apologize but i must disagree with you on this point. I believe that we do, and always have the availability of clean unlimited resources. A fish will never run out of water to swim in. It is simply the balance of nature. As humans we are ofcourse apart of the balance of nature. However, in our infinite “wisdom” we continue to upset that balance for the sake of the elite few.

“Do you plan on restricting the number of children people can have too?”

Very insightful point. I agree this control of power, similar to what is going on in present day china is immoral. In fact i susoect the venus project, if implemented, would eventually cause the need for this restriction. In a world where food and resources are always abundant without people having to work in any way, be it a job or simply hunting for food and resources, would lead to expanded human life-spans directly causing in an increase in human population. While long life is good, this can upset the natural balance of the world. However, this can be overcome by instead of restricting the number pregnancies, one could restrict the production and distribution of energy. In a way we do this already, for ofcourse we have the “haves” and the “have nots”. But you are right this is a transittion to a different form of control, yet with free food. However, if we get free food and free energy, is it not the lesser of two evils?

“Personally I am not enslaved by money, but many people are enslaved by many things, including money, but mostly debt.”

Forgive me, for i sincerley do not aim to insult your intelligence, but this statement strikes me as most naive. We all exist in a monetary system, therefore we are all enslaved by money. As long as you need money, your will always be its slave, as well as the slave to everything that money can buy. The system we live in is greatly fueled by money amongst other illusions of tangible importance.

“Everything can’t be in abundance all the time unless many things sometimes go to waste when patterns change. That’s why we use prices. It’s not to create scarcity, it’s to find equilibrium between producers and consumers.”

Here i find some truth a falacy within this statement. In congruence with your argument, i agree it could potentially be a bad thing to have everything in abundance, as it eleminates the value of appreciation. Also, it does not solve problems such as greed. Put two babies in a room with two identital shiny balls, and both babies will still want both for himself or herself. And last but not least, it raises the question: what will happen to incentive? However, contrary to popular belief prices are not to “..find equilibrium between producers and consumers.” For instance, everyone loves diamonds which are expensive. Many believe that things that are expensive are rare. Therefore many believe that diamonds are rare. In fact diamonds are not rare. they are expensive for the simple fact that because people natually enjoy shiny, pretty things they will buy them. Since the diamond industry is controlled by only a handful of diamond mining companies (such as Debers), it is easy to control the production and flow of diamonds. A similar scenario can be applied to oil. If something that is not rare is in demand, the protocol for capatilsm is to make it seem rare.

“the above commentaries mostly ignore an issue not fully illuminated by the video; the crisis of conciousness in the perspective of needed fundamental alterations to human behaviour.”

very good reitteration of the video. The venus project offers many plausible answers to todays society, except on how to change the culture. The fact is, i doubt there is any way to change the culture. We are too far gone i believe. We need to litterally start fresh with an entirely new population of people. I know that sounds extreme, but mull it over and you’ll probably find that this is true. Additionally the video raised the question: human nature or human behavior. This can be held in common with the already proposed phschology delima of nurture versus nature. Obvious aspects of human nature i have already stated including food, shelter, sleep, and sexual release. However, if you put two wild men on a deserted island with limited food, what would happen? if one kills the other is just human nature–the will to survive? or is he simply reacting to his enviornment, and therfore would not kill the man if there was an abundance of food?

In the end, we must realize that todays society isnt working. We believe that we work for a means to an end, yet the reality that we don’t want to believe is that the means is the end. I don’t assert that the venus project is the answer, or even the best asnwer to our problems. I do believe however it is at least plausible to say that it is the lesser of two evils.

also thanks for the google tid bits. i look forward to reading them over.

Any medium has limitations in how it gets across its message. You call out those weaknesses in the film, which requires a level of focus, bravo, but miss its central message.

Your article reads like the film offended your belief system, which is a call out in the film. Fresco states that The Venus Project won’t be perfect but he is reaching for something better. Dream a little.

“It just seems like such a cop-out to blame the man in the suit for all your problems.”

I didn’t mean to come across as blaming “the man” for any of my problems. in fact, my own personal problems at this point in my life are mundane enough that they don’t need to be solved by any reform within any social system or economic system within out government. However, i do assert that much of the social and economic problems of the war can be blamed on “the man” to a great affect (i.e. war, uneven distribution of world wealth and health care, pollution, etc.) I suspect that we can both agree on the fact that we can probably define the man to a great extent as the federal reserve bank in league with the united states government. Here in lies the problem of the monetary system that i think fresco was trying to tackle.

“completely disagree. I am only enslaved by money if I don’t have any.”

Are you not also enslaved by money by trying to keep as much as you can when you do have it? I think we are all enslaved by money wether we know it or not. At this point, it’s not sumthing we can really control unless we walk the path of budah so to speak.

“Let’s assume we agree on the basic need categories as described above, can you really satisfy everybody’s food needs with an abundance of a few kinds of food, or will you have an abundance of every kind of food?”

if i am correct, i suspect that what you are saying here is that the same problems of social heirchy will still exists in this “better” world fresco advocates if there are still varying qualities of products that are limited to only a few people, which over shadow the abundunce of products. If so, then i agree this is a problem that the venus project does not address. but once again, is that not a better alternative to uneven distribution of products AND uneven distribution of the quality of products?

“And if diamonds are so abundant and people are so stupid, go start a diamond mine and profit instead of complaining about it on the internet…”

Well the answer to this is the same reason why “we allow ourselves to be conditioned into believing that a diamond is forever”. Misdirection. As for me personally, my passion is making and editing movies, not mining for minerals…

“Equal and fair are not the same.”

No objections here. however, in this current state we are NIETHER equal NOR fair. The present economic crisis is ofcourse increasing the dispartiy of equality and fairness even further, as the rich most likley plan to drain the cash cow for all that its worth until it dies, while the average american, who is say–a blogger, files for bankrupty. And as we both know, the trend since the inception of the Fed. will make this continue until it collapses on itself, and then who knows what new evil will occur then. The point im making is that we are in a self-destructive pattern which has increased in rate dramatically since the funding of this “war on terror” which is designed to be sustained not necesarrily “won”.

At least in the venus project we can solve the equality problem, and work out the fairness later. Contrastingly in todays present system, the lack of reform is only adding more fuel to the fire.

Well, who can argue with logic? I guess this is just a problem which has no “better” solutions in sight, becuase frankly the current proposed “reforms” are really just bandades that aren’t healing anything.

Sorta depressing. I guess its just the hope that the venus project sells gives people solace in the theory that maybe its not true “Nobody is smart enough and honest enough to do it right.” We all just wish “this time it will be different”…

My email: solomondesupra@yahoo.com

i like to converse with intelligent minds

you learned absolutely nothing from that movie. you’re still thinking selfishly, and the whole thing about who does what is ridiculous in a resource based economy. everyone simply pulls their own weight when it comes to what ever work, rarely any, has to be done. get YOUR facts straight before you post what you think is intelligent information. the venus project is about EVERYONE treated equal, with no arbitrary labels. no one would have any more power than any one else. if everyone is allowed access to everything, how can a power elite even exist? can you refute the FACT that we have enough resources on this planet for everyone on it to live in a comfortable HOUSE and not have to worry about food and clothing. the resources are there, we just have to be efficient with it, and that’s where technology comes in, to make everything as efficient as possible, even down to nano tech self repair. it may sound a little bit sci-fi, but so was men on the moon at one point in history. given a long enough time line, all sci-fi eventually becomes sci-fact. i think this idea is just so unfathomable to you because of your dependence on the system that you simply just can’t and won’t comprehend it no matter what i say.

Excellent criticism, I completely agree that this is just another utopia and am somewhat baffled that quite are few people are obviously falling for this scam – even if the men and women behind the Venus Project are of good intention, it will feel like imposture would there ever be the attempt to implement it.

You make a lot of good points (in original post) and everyone else does too. I am not an economist, I am just a writer so I can’t speak with any authority on the ins and outs of economic structures. However, I think it is incredibly narrow-minded to completely discount everything the Venus Project has to say, and in my opinion, a lot of the criticism of it comes from scared people who are afraid of change and afraid that there might, just might, be another way of living. Sure there might be flaws with Fresco’s ‘vision’ but he himself says that nothing is ever perfect, things must always change and evolve and there are problems that we must overcome together if we are to live in a better society.
Capitalists are not friends of the people, they do not have the peoples’ best interests at heart and it is not a system that works for the people, the billions of starving people across the world tell you that much. I think anything is possible it just requires a little belief and imagination…it can’t possibly be any worse than what we have already…war, famine, disease, disinformation, exploitation…can it?

I am trying to keep an open mind and trying to learn as much as possible and trying my hardest not to believe all the bullshit we are all fed from so many directions. I think completely writing off anyone’s alternative theories given the current economic and cultural position we’re all in is just a desire to bury our heads in the sand.

I’ve have seen this movie and I could speak infinitely why this system would never work as it is promising, the idea of never having to work and everything being provided for you by machines its really one of the most absurds things I have ever heard, not because it is impossible because it can be, but our depency on money would have turn to machines but that really is not the point. I agree 100% with the film’s point of view of MONETARISM this is true and how our world has been truly dependant on this, but first I must say very clear that whoever had no idea our world is controlled by a higher class of individuals or rich people whichever you may want to call it, truly is not aware of their own surroundings. This has been know throughout history since the first human civilizations such as Greek and Roman, just the only difference was really land. Human society can never ever truly function without some form of government, it would not make us different then chimpazees only with higher intelligence. The idea that people can govern themselves its absurd it has never happen and it will never happen. the Venus Project is not only a fantasy, but is dangerous, it really is no different than our society today, whoever is in control of providing anything for us whatever it may be, housing, food, human pleasures, or clothes its going to have direct control over us. What happens when you disagree that you may not want to wear what they give you?or eat the food they serve you? or live whereever they place you? are they going to provide with whatever necessity you want? or are you going to be satisfy with what you receive? yea right, you and 6 billion other individuals will get whatever they desire, just by listining to this promises make our political candidates sound truthful. This is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. First you must understand why every society has had some type or form of government, without it we would never survive. Not everyone have the same ideas, the same values, the same beliefs, the same history, this is why this it would never work. You may think that this project is the answer to our problems and peace at last, please don’t tell me that you people are so naive. This is not going to stop crime or inhumanity first you must understand why do people commit murders, why do we have “ethnic cleansing” in our world creating genocide and annihalation of humans? Why do we have dictatorships? Is it really money the cause of this? Ladies and Gentlemen this is a cause that’s been in existence since the creation of man, the desire for POWER. Why would civilizations wanted to expand their kingdoms and be the supreme culture or power in the world? It is in our human nature to destroy each other, and this ridiculous thoughts of having this wonderful and unique society because of technology its just never going to be accomplished. You people act like whatever is happening in the world today is something new, NO its in our history because its our human nature to destroy ourselves. Why do you think we need a military and we always had one? Because we cannot live with ourselves pretending everyone is going to want peace and prosperity. Forgive me when I say this but people are just stupid to believe everything they tell them because it sounds good. Of course some of us want peace and equality but the idea that is going to happen it is not possible no matter what society that we have. Ambition, hate, jealousy, envy those are human characteristics that no society can take from us is our nature. The Venus Project talks about having a society without laws, please I beg you don’t tell me that you believe this. Why do you think we have laws in the first place? you people should really study ancient civilizations to understand the fundamentals of law in a society. You expect to believe everyone is going to respect each other and agree on everything, that sounds like brainwashing to me. So tell me what happens when you get assaulted by another individual, or get your property destroyed? what will protect you then. There are no laws, what does not allow just anyone to come into your home without your permission, or sexually assault your daughter? now dont tell this “NEW” society is also going to disappear the use of alcohol because last time we tried that crime rose immensely during the prohibition era. And do you think because we have everything we need people are not going to commit murder? what if is a love affair,? what we are going to teach this new society to be faithful too?
The thought of people behaving a perfect God-like community is IMPOSSIBLE no matter what best technology there is, there has to be some form of control over our own behavior. Having said all of this and I honestly could go on, I can honestly say that the Venus Project have very good intentions and ideas, it just sounds like a sci-fi movie honestly, whoever believes of this type of society is really out of touch of what is going on with the world today and why people behave the way they do. Now Im not saying the technology that is being spoken about is impossible, most of the technological advances that they speak about in this film is already being put to practice, but I think that the Venus Project and Peter Joseph are being manipulative and use irrational ideas that make people think or believe that we live in some kind of tyranny when this is not the CASE!! yes there are major flaws in our government and they are not the most honest individuals you’ll ever meet, yea big coorporations are big players in our world today and have some type of control, I was in favor of this film and agreed with everything it was presented to me because Peter Joseph is partially right, but then he was practically advertising for the Venus Project, he is not truly want to make a difference, he is just another propagandist with great directing skills to mislead the public to overthrow not just our government but worldwide governments just for the sole purpose of the Venus Project, he is just the same trying to make PROFIT the same thing he is so much against about. Honestly can you tell me that you would open a business just so you can give things for free or less than what you paid for, I am not denying the fact that there some coorporations that do take advantage of this but this is business and if that’s your type of thing then that’s how you will earn your money. you want free education, who is going to pay for the building maintanance, energy, water, heat, teachers, books, pencils, computers, desks, and etc? you want free food who is going to buy from every fruit, vegetable, juice, bread, rice, corn, o i guess if you were a farmer you are going to work hard growing crops for free right? people complain because they are not satify with anything they just dont want to do anything period and this illusion of being provided with everything is the solution to the problem. It is time to truly take action in our way of life, our society, and our government but with this stupid and ridiculous idea of “Perfect society because of machines and technology” and all of these boycott are just going to create more problems then solving any. I know that you may disagree with me but please I implore you think about what the Venus Project is telling you and you’ll just realize that you are living in a world of fantasy, is manipulating you into thinking something that it is not possible, just because it sounds good. Do not be mislead there different ways to handle our problems and this is just a dream with a touch of technological fanatism.

I think the point is being missed. The point is that a world without corruption and greed can be possible, but no one can truly believe this because we have lived in a monetary society all our lives and can’t imagine a world like that.
You cannot disagree that life would be much better the way it was described by the venus project, but society won’t let it happen because we love being miserable.

I think all the comments have some good point.
I agree with the idea that IF, such thing like the Project Venus works, needs to start from scratch, from a FRESH BORN society.
If this is possible? I dont know…

My opinion, such thing as the PV is doable, BUT, this will ONLY happen after the world as we know today is gone.

Nuclear war to finish everything ? maybe, why not.
I think only after such a big thing happens on earth, people will “may” start to change minds…
History tells this…

So, in other words…this idea of the PV is something for 500 years from now…if not more…

Just go back 500 years, and see what were the kind of “present” values/behaviors and “expectations” about the future…

I’m happy reading minds at work…
I would appreciate comments on the short terms “solutions” proposed at the end of the movie.
And also about that one : Free money?,, reestablishing the green-backs or better like “Ithaca hours”?
I know about some classified ads web site who offers some “exchange utilities” for their users to accommodate indirect trade.
I see the “Venus Project” as an idealistic view of some relative near future, but for the immediate next generations, tools like “free money” will permit the transition without collapsing the established present structures.

Wow. Much like every one else who commented (yeah I know they all said that as their first line too), this was a great, thought out post that really takes the movie i just spent TWO HOURS watching and points out the real flaws in it. Money is not the problem, power is. So how can you eliminate power from society? haha.. yeah right.

This movie is pushing for “true democracy” and a technological communistic way of life. The sad truth is, communism is way too idealistic to be pratically and successfully implemented on a global scale.

This movie assumes that people are NOT naturally competitive and that people are all equal and should share everything. Unfortunately, this cannot be true. Competition is a key part of nature. If we were all equal then how does competitions and contests today work? Why does a game of anything end up with the better person winning?

Some people are just better than others (at least in some aspect of life), and those that are better (at zeitgeist calls the “elite”) will not share willingly because they deserve not to.

One can see competition all around in nature. Lions fighting for their mate. Big fish eats he little fish. Competition is the basis of evolution, and evolution is the way in which we understand how nature grows.

In conclusion, I believe VP is way too idealistic to ever become a reality.

Although it was entertaing and very fun to think about.

If the author of this ever reads this comment(just one of the 6 million others) please hit me back about what you think about what I think about this.

I strongly believe the real point of this film is washing over many of you who are attempting to dissect every facet of The Venus Project and how it could provide for humans a better way forward. The discussion over human nature and human behavior that was put forward in the film described in a general sense that human “nature” or “behavior” (whatever you want to call it) is dictated in large part by necessity and excacerbated by scarcity of those necessities. In the majority of our current societies human behavior in all of its negative forms has become attached to mindless, consumer goods and services. That is a by-product of the current system we live in, the monetary system, we are provided with a wealth of choice in all the things that don’t matter. Choose from 30 different types of toothpaste or chips. Yet when it comes to the truly important aspects of progressive insight and understanding in the world in which we live and how we can make it better is supressed by the same institutions that might give us dozens of choices of un-necessary goods, but only 2 realistic choices for a president.
I looked on the film, and am hopeful others will do as informative and thought provoking. Yes, it does seem as though the venus project was being “pushed” on the viewer a tad pervasively, but maybe it would be safer to look at such a thing as an “idea” and not a reality. Ideas are not born perfect, and nothing ever becomes perfect. If you believe the monetary system breeds extreme polarization between power and the majority of the people, something that is explained in each Zeitgeist film quite clearly, than you might be looking for better ideas forward for mankind, both macro and micro, in your own lives and in those of others. This is what is truly important about, that we do not accept things for the way they are, the world is a nightmare, we have reached a technological and intellectual level that is far above how we currently carry out sustaining our elected power, and in essence our own.
If the world is ever to be free, if a child in Ethiopia and the United States have equal opportunity it will only be because humans have at last understood that our planet and universe is far more important for our kind than the needs of the individual. And humans for once, and we will be taken there some day, either by catastrophe or enlightenment, through the experience of unconditional love.
In the meantime, let us not denegrate and step on each others words, we are all the people. I don’t expect “the Elite” to be posting blogs and articles ( a frightful thought ). It is up to the people to decide if we want these systems of corruption to continue raping and pillaging the people and environment of our planet, it is up to us to decide what we want to pass on to the future generations. There is no future without today, the present dictates the future. The history of mankind has been forever changed by the opinions of enlightened thinkers, whose ideas are most often shunned at the time. Just as many have and will state that part of human nature is greed, if so, surely love is too ? Our planet has been treated unethically, dictated by the greed of nations, allowed by the people of the power sources. We should not and can not treat our planet this way, we must be caretakers and not pillagers. The facts about wind, solar, tidal, wave and geothermal energy in the film are all true and these means of energy will only become more available. It must be the people that demand the change though, unfortunately so often these incredibly clean, efficient and modern techniques of energy capture are hidden in the mainstream, if you didn’t know why before you do now, profit. Ask for it, if they won’t give it to you then go about it in your own way independently, not only is it good environmental ethics but will most likely pay itself off rather quickly.
Our primary focus should be on the environment, we need it to survive and we cannot continue treating it in such a way, for the profit of a few.
Cheers

If the zeitgeist addendum is bs then why do most people that “make it” in our current system turn to philanthropy??

This is the future or you will be fighting your children for resources (though some posters are probably quite happy to do that)

My friend. Don’t get so hectic criticizing this new idea. At least accept one thing. Is better than what we have right now. And don’t say too much. Is not a Utopia, neither everyone would have a Florida beach house. Nobody said or assumed that. That was merely shown to reflect the process of achieving a new society, new design, more stable house, more ergonomic. All in the process, a glimpse, a draft not the actual thing. Why as humans always attack on our own specie just to seek what makes as different, wrong or wright instead of looking how to be better all together? Is people like you that move things backwards. Be intelligent and logic and think about the possibilities of both an integration of monetary and resource base system like i do! Don’t throw everything down the drain. We all have to work together on this one.
Zeitgeist states a lot of truths about our current society after all. Yes my friend. We are not civilized. If we have crime, greed, prisons, wars we are not civilized yet…we are just moving in veru small steps away from the cave.
Your critisism is not wrong based on the society you grew up upon. Is absolutely normal. Is not your fault to act so angry, direct and ruthlessly trying to support the current system because this system made you this way. Maybe 3-4 people along with Fresko thought about a great possibility. Imagine if we all stop a think. …A thousand of us..or a million of solutions how much better this documentary view could be more clear and concrete.
So unless you have a better solution for all the hunger, war, abuse, crime, false perceptions and distorted reality that we are fed then join us to create something better.

Thank you,

Kyriacos Papaspyrou

this is a verry intresting arguement
and i love the critesism from both party’s. it reminds me of my first and last philosofy class i had a few years ago .
when i saw the movie i whas stunned and verry entertained because well i just love conspiacy theories but i love critisim on conspiracy theories even more. in my oppinion this is the perfect way to understand our place in society
yes we are slaves of the monetary system but look at what we have achieved trough it
isnt technology a product of the montary consumtion society/system ? and offcourse that of science. when you think possitive of it whe should even thank the creators of the system for ouwer more or less stable society we live in .
sure its ugly and far from perfect but its better than anything we had before. we must always take in acount or animal behaviour when it comes to ideas about changing our society.after all we are nothing less than competing for resources and reproducing apes in our by evolution shaped minds right. that being said we should shape our society acordenly .and this system has done a pretty good job at it.the more we compeet the more productive we are as a spiecies and the more we could accomplish in our time.and dont forget our time will go in history as the time of the great leap forward.where we can even dream of utopia’s without compeeting against one another what is
sadly but ofcours bullshit .

sorry for my bad english guys :/

‘Unarmed truth and unconditional love’…if we can unmask these qualities that we have within ourselves then the future of mankind is bright indeed…if we cannot then the planet earth will soon be free of the pestering plague of people.
Positive* technological advancements and renewable/sustainable living…are ideals that will only be supported by positive-minded-people. Positive-minded-people are the underlying basis for positive change in the world…so while working with technology, working with economies, working with sustainable designs…it is essential that we work on creating a positive mind within ourselves (in other words, develop our own understanding and love). For it is only by transforming our minds that we can bring about positive change.

The VP contains a very positive outlook…and even just the idea of creating a more positive society, is itself a sign of positive forward thinking.

By the way it’s great to see the passion involved in the discussions on the various issues, debate tends to lead towards deeper understanding.

Smiles to all…Ben =)

*Positive = helping others and oneself to be free of suffering or dissatisfaction

The point being missed here is that VP isn’t the be all end all, the ultimate solution.
like the multiple faiths that evolve, or the diverse countries that operate on variations of historical rule of law based societies a system not based on our current assumptions can be experimented with.

It is somewhat reminiscient of Ayn Rand’S utopian society in Atlas shrugged, try to imagine VP like that a small experimental commune populated by luminaries inventors, tinkerers, the difference between now and the 50s when Rand was writting is that we have the internet, social networks 2nd life, the people dont need to start in a country of their own they can decide whether they want to emigrate to the physical place where VP exists at a time in the future, in the mean time they can interact virtually with them from without. Then by adding a couple of trilionaire philantropists to the mix the physical manifestation of this experiment can be started. I simplify of course but my point is why not start an experiment and see if it can thrive ?

Dirk

I agree with this article entirely. I have lived during communism and have from that perspective a very sceptic view of such a social engineering project. I regard Zeitgeist as a decent form of entertainment but as a guide and source of information it is clearly aimed at people with next to no life experience. Let’s for the sake of this argument sink at a lower level of human existence and desires: I have a beautiful daughter and a person of greater respect in this society want’s to have sexual intercourse with her against her will. How will this system solve that problem? How will I solve the scarcity of my children? Just make them more abundant? This projects omits a facet of life that religion (mine is orthodox christian) addresses and that is morality. Morality won’t become obsolete only by having no electricity bills to pay. People will still want something. Morality tries to manage these urges and Law enforces them. Zeitgeist is right: religion is definetely a form of control but it is subtle and is interwoven with the human spirit – that’s why it has existed since the beginning and will endure until the end of human kind.
I am an architect and only one the houses shown in the Venus project is worth quite a lot. How will they become abundant when production capacity is limited by the number of people willing and having the knowledge to build them? There can be millions of million dollars houses but that requires billions of people building them and these people require billions of tv’s, billions of cars, billions of clothes, billions of doctors to take care of them, billions of teachers to teach them….etc. The movie and the project starts from the fact that our resources are limited, how can out of limited resources result an abundant amount of things. Abundant means, by the movie’s explanation means TO SPARE. Overall adding everything up this project requires next to infinite resources. And my daughter still won’t make it.
I am very gratefull if you made it reading so far and further I will try to end my post in a more entertaining way:
We have for the better or worse made it so far and this mumbo jumbo denies everything we accomplished, WE, the sheep of the capitalist and religious wolf. This crap vision still needs us, the sheep, the gullable and the unhappy slaves. It aims you buddy and it want’s your money. The Venus Project website hase a big “DONATE” button and it want’s that filthy dept you call in your infinite ingnorance: money. It’s your debt and you slavery so buy a TV and enslave yourself even more because I am shure the old dude who runs the Venus Project will if you don’t. If by a miracle you will enter such a society don’t forget to take aside your philosophy books your shotgun and your Bible, because it won’t be long before these Star Trek guys will come for your ass and if the first item doesn’t help the second one surely will.
How is that for an intelectual ending?

I do hope that there is a big, open mind beyond your opinion. I for one, have doubts about the Venus Project as well, and have thought long and hard beyond the hysterical paranoia within Addendum.

In fact, my natural first reaction was to fall in love with the Venus Project, and personally my natural reaction to that initial reaction (because I am a woman) is to strongly doubt and question it.

It is not a perfect plan. There are faults with it. I think the more people who question is the better, as long as they help come up with answers instead of just brushing the idea off.

The bottom line is this: our world is a mess. There are two kinds of people right now. Those who benefit from the existence of money and those who are completely screwed over by it. So when it comes down to it, there are those who will fall in love with the idea of equality for everyone, and there are those who will detest the concept of not being better than other people.

So making the transition is damn near impossible, but it does give “real” people something to fantasize about and maybe even hope for, if not for themselves for their children.

There is no way to bring everybody together to contribute, because people like to criticize and doubt and question things with tunnel vision. You can’t just dream, you have to do. People have to take action.

The most important thing out of all of what I am saying is that whatever dounts you may have… it is a valid idea. It poses a real solution, something that nobody else seems to be coming up with. You may doubt this concept because it is “outside of the box” but what idea do you have to fix the problems of the world? I’ll tell you what, the Venus Project is definitely a better idea than what’s going on now! Even if it doesn’t work, neither does the world as we know it now.

@Point: You’ve some good points here. I completely agree with you, but thats not why I am commenting.

@Others upholding TVP: Wake up! The world is beyond US, Europe and other first world countries. It consists of people struggling to make their ends meet, don’t have education, wake up every morning praying they won’t be dead by the night. Do you really think they are ready for this ideal world which thinks that human mind is free when its free of drudgery? I highly recommend Maslow’s Hierarchy of needs. Its because Jacques Fresco is at the top or somewhere near it, that he feels this necessary. Where I live, if things were free and humans won’t have to work for money, there would be riot. Remember even God hasn’t created everyone equal!

Both sides to this conversation produce truthful visions of VP’s merit and of its flaws; this is inherently an argument of philosophy, using facts or ideals either expressed (in point’s case) from the confines of modern day thinking, or from idealistic thinking that can be neither proven nor disproven (VP proponents). The point is, just as is discussed in Zeitgeist, we cannot fathom the world that may exist in the future, as we have not experienced the evolution of technology/mentality necessary to fully envision the VP concept, similar to prior generations not able to envision our current society. Both points arguments and his opponents are trying to explain a future we haven’t the science to explain yet, and as such the arguments will reciprocate without any linear direction- in short, any piece of information in this debate can support or attack the argument of either side.

Point is quite valid in many areas- abundance of everything is not possible at this juncture, however in defense of his attackers, it is impossible to disregard the possibility of removing the requirement for objects in a future seeing man with a modified mindset. For example, in a world where man understands a diamond ring is unnecessary to attain status through fashion, or show his love for his mate, diamonds become useless except within technological function. As a result, items in many other arenas may experience an abundance when the traditional usage is exposed as unnecessary (who will classify it so is another argument entirely), greatly enhancing their use in the improvement of life. While the above argument is debatable, the entry of governance and inevitably the possibility for corruption enters with the subliminal message of job: who would perform all the tasks not yet handled by machines? If 75% of the world wanted to develop the space program, yet 0% wanted to remove garbage or maintain sewers, than we bear the necessity of a governing body to mandate the performance of this job. Free market capitalism already fulfills this necessity: If no man wants to do this filthy job, the wages increase to such an extent that the jobs compensation outweighs its undesirable working conditions. In VP, where everything is free and absent of monetary motivation, either the whole would suffer from proper disposal of sewage, or governance would mandate someone to perform the job or develop the technology to perform the job, inevitably removing his freedom. Of course, if mankind developed the mentality of service to fellow man, than one would gladly perform that job, but also would create a situation of potential abuse for his willingness to serve if officials were so inclined to exploit it.

In defense of VP supporters and point’s critics, this exploitation has already occurred in the system of capitalism, or at least has been allowed to form itself as an entity above capitalism, independently controlling the public for agendas Trojan in nature. One need to look no farther than the war on terror or the war in Iraq. The manipulation of american pride would be no more extreme than the potential for manipulation in the servitude of the human race.

In short, I think both camps have valid points, and assuming one right or wrong deprives both of valid issues necessary for a truthful light on the possibility of VP, and the potential of its failings. I think we can all agree a world where everyone can eat, everyone can pursue their dreams equally, and everyone benefits from the fruits of technology is desirable (even point), but the possibility of it being possible is another thing entirely.

People, go back to the wise words of the Beatles..”all you need is love” and the rest shall fall into place, be go the world and it’ll be good to you. Be good to others (humans and flora and fauna) and they’ll be good to you…Te energy you put out will be what you gain back. The world has bucome such a mess because of greed, negligence, hate, all these negative feelings…here are a few quotes from Addendum to remind you all of what it’s really coming from and only trying to bring a concept to surface of an option to improve and change like all human existence is ever trying to do- but for all and not just ourselves. We are all; start thinking this way!

“When it really comes down to what’s really actually important, the institution of politics…have absolutely true relevance. Politics have no true relevance that help our world. They don’t know how to solve problems.. It’s the technicians, technology that solves problems. Politicians cannot solve problem because aren’t trained to solve problems.”

“Very few people stop and consider what it is that actually improves their lives. Is it money? Obviously not. One cannot eat money or stuff it into their cars to get it to run. Is it politics? All politicians can do is create laws, establish budgets, and declare war. Is it religion. Of course not. Religion creates nothing but intanglible emotional solice for those who reuqire it. The true gift that has been solely responsible that has improves our lives is technology. What is technology? Automobiles, eye glasses, Applied technology itself is merely an extension of human attributes which reduces human effort freeing humans from a particular chore or problem. Telephones, ovens, computers, aeroplanes, door bells, tables, dishwashers; is technology, generated from the creative, scientific ingenuity of human technicians . Not money, or politcs or religion, these are false institutions.”

“The question is not how much will it cost. It is do we have the resources?” We would have to go on to find out…but belive in each other and our human research, our elders and scientists and go step by step..

They talk of technology ruling out human jobs. But machines always need upkeep and checking too, creation, upkeep and adaption would be the human jobs then, everyone working more so in technology rather than repetitive, small, ignorant jobs. It would free people more instead of have them working in slave labour jobs(sweatshops etc). The extreme changes Venus Project is talking about would happene evenutally over time, with chance to adjust, go through trial and error like all new systems. It looks bizarre on the movie, yes, but it’s a simluation like all proposals, not exact!

“My country is the world and my religion is to do good.”- Thomas Paine 1737-1809

“It is the insight of the emergence of all systems we must recognize. This means we must be open to new information at all times, even if it threatens our current belief systems and hence identities.”

“Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure. When to be proven wrong is to be celebrated. For it is elevating someone to a new level of understanding, furthering awareness.”

“I belives that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final say in reality” –Martin Luther King 1929-1968

“Once we understand that the integrity of our personal extistences are completely dependant on the integrity of everything else in our world,we have truelyunderstand the idea of unconditional love. For love is extensionality and seeing everything as you and you are everything For we are all everything at once.”

So, TVP has took off, old cities have been replaced by swish new cities, we’ve got flying cars, If I want one I just toddle down the the plant and pick up the keys. I’ve got everything I ever wanted, but….

I get out of bed in the morning, what do I do? I’m free right? If I was a cable repair man in the monetary system would I really want to spend my days waiting for someones local cable to go down? Or do I sit back and chill in my free condo, listening to music in my underwear. I’ll bother to get dressed for lunch and jump the mag-train to hong-kong for some noodles.

Wouldn’t everyone just do the same? Our first real taste of freedom, not being dictated to by “the man” We can do what we like without fear of having our utilities disconnected as there’s no bill, we don’t need to buy food so we won’t starve. But someone has to grow that food with their own FREE time, someone has to mend the roads, keep a check on the geothermal generators, and umpteen trillion other things. Would you be arsed? We’re free right?

If there were no slaves, nothing would ever get done.

First of all, my apologies in case of english-writing mistakes and if some will feel offended, I’m not an english-speaking native. Haven’t read all, cause nothing new. You are among the 20% of people consuming 80% of the resources of the planet. Still wanna to point the finger at the “men behind the curtains”? And you what are you? You are all greedy. Just in various ways. If I were you, I will seriously start to consider becoming more humble. You play clever and sincere (believe me, not truly, you need your silly ego). So you are “educated”. Perfect. That’s the point: “educated”. Changing education changes the way of seeing things, whatever the “thing” is, concrete or abstract. The objectives: get a profound conscience that we all die and accept it (yes, we make as if we know but fear it), so we don’t need any god, paradies and whatever bullshit (let’s call a cat a cat) to comfort us and accept the idea of disappearing one day. It’s time that the arrogant “man” accepts something so simple!!!! Our fear of death makes us (the 20% of greedy men on earth) run like stupid and always want more than what is really needed. Don’t believe it? Think deep, very deep, you’ll see. I saw somewhere in this thread someone talking about the main needed things and someone else immediately broadening them into categories: this foreverlasting “more and allways more”? Come on!. And “marrying jessica alba”, I saw as an example, what an example!! Do we need more? What a social-robot! Changing education to make us all more conscient of the fact that it is pointless to always want to perform better than the neighbour, want more than the other, and to stop believing in conceptualisations that make us take “knowledge” for intelligence and pride ourself to become the arrogant idiots we all are (EGO=sickness and not what we learn it is), etc… ALL the “this more and more of this” lead us into living as stupid excessive consumers, unbalanced, arrogant when just “totally” educated/conditioned/conceptualized social robots, BOXED to such an INSANELY extend by the overestimated concepts of family, nation and what WE are. Result? Easy to be manipulated. And you are totally manipulated. Just a “carrot” in front of your eyes is needed. Incredible, isn’t it? We need to change our vision of life, we are idiots. In case some miss the point, I’m criticizing an “excessively conceptualized way of thinking” as opposed to “free thinking” –and before the same “intelligent” guy comes up, I mean “free” in the meaning of a “way of thinking” only attainable by someone who recovered a true natural spirit, who cleaned himself from all unbalanced and unbalancing poisonous “incentives” or whatever excessive ideas promoting a stupid “wonderful self” and deserved “happyness” based on the “reification” (or thing-ization) of all elements of life, or by someone educated since childhood so that he lives with the consciousness of what balance is. With another way of seing our life, ourselves and our primary resources, then, and only then, we’ll be able to achieve what we seek. Otherwise, no need to discuss about any project with the same stupid way of running like slave. And YOU, yes YOU, you are a slave, even more thant the other when I read YOU. We need to not only change our habits but to educate our children. We all want to make babies (not everyone, thanks to the wise persons)–I need MINE, MINE, MINE!!! silly!– but live as if we were the last generation on earth. You make babies and are not ready to live something on earth for them to live. Go to church, make babies, BUT mutually eat yourself and all the resources on earth!!! YOU are nothing, your name is nothing, and all you believe is nothing. You haven’t begun to understand the most important thing. Look at you, you and your ego, you and your offspring. You talk in threads, play intelligent, but when talking to your kids, sure that all you tell them boils down to “be stronger”.

i agree with miss understood- bring on the love people! and dave some people enjoy cropping and growing things ad there wud be new technology helping also, machines doing alot of the work for us. People always need enriching, rewarding things in our lives and helping the good of the world is one of them that will never stop. It’s wrong to call them “slaves”. There would always be social, community prjects to keep people motivated and working together, to meet people and keep enhancing our lives. Live wouldn’t be alien from what it is now, still jobs, still work to do, but improvements would minimise treacherous tasks and slave labour ike sweatshops. Stop buying evil brand names and absorbing ourselves in things that add to the detrimet of others. Encourage and support the good.

can i remind people to go and watch (now a 3 yr old movie..so contemplate that..) an inconvenient truth again if u have already and what have you been doing thats more important if u havnt? rethink ur xmas presents, buy people energy saving lightbulbs instead of more crap for xmas, help awareness of a world in need. we are the only thing that can help it as we are the ones who have done the damage and KNOW how to undo it. let’s move. As they say in africa; let’s move our feet as we pray. Actions speak louder than words. So let’s get off this chat, our bit is done here, and go and do something to help our progress instead of our diminish in this world.
visit http://www.climatecrisis.net for more info on “An Inconvenient Truth”.
And to simplify things in short;
http://www.climatecrisis.net/takeaction/pdf/10things.pdf

It’s time to act and be the one world that we are, more than ever. Stop arguing, spliting from each other and let’s see eye to eye.
I belive the Venus Project will help us towards this goal in utilising more efficiet ways of power, looking at populations and helping us take part in a happier and more livable world. Let’s not live in fear and doubt. When has it ever been so important to try new things. Not dangerous, ludicrous ideas, but measured, calculated, judged ideas that will bring us forward and hopefully bind us together as people not “nations” and “races”. We are one world, let’s start acting like one.

You are just applying the old ideas to the new concept. It was hillarious to see the attempt to explain the new concept with the old one!

Healthy economy = Economic growth,

Economic growth = Population growth,

Population growth = Growth in demand for resources,

Growth in demand for resources + Finite size of planet earth
= Environmental unsustainability + Ecosystem collapse.

Surprise, surprise!

We will either be forced to accept a resource based economy through necessity AS A DIRECT CONSEQUENCE OF THE CURRENT SYSTEM-

or

WE CAN RESPOND SOON whilst its implementation would be easier and resources could be allocated with sustainability in mind.

The venus project began way back in a cave somewhere when three babies survived to adulthood rather than two.

(This logic reasoning assumes that humans are not inherently nihilistic, which i could never disprove)

This is a fascinating thread. I have not studied economics but this might be an advantage. I have thought about resources a lot and found only one truly EVENLY distributed resource that is exactly the same for every person on this planet.

Time.

We all have 24 hours per day. An hour lost is lost forever. I haven’t figured out the issue that time is worth more to some than others (terminally ill etc.) but essentially time is the ultimate resource.
A currency based on time as the asset would level the playing field.
An hour for an hour. When I give up an hour of my life for something society needs I get credited 1 hour and earn the right to spend that credit towards that took somebody else an hour. Anything made by machines becomes virtually free. This would still not stop the exploitation of natural resources but I can’t think of a ‘silver bullet’ to solve this. Can anybody out there contribute to this thought?
How about a wiki of new world order?

Im interested were there any other projects like Project Venus before ???

Also is there any good comunity about this project.
As I can see the forum on offcial sites are stil in construction faze

btw, excelent spot!

….Speaking of time – this struck me most about the idea of basing the human culture/ society on the efficient and intelligent use of resources. Research scientists and brilliant minds all over the world instead of working on solutions to urgent problems (cancer, HIV to name a few) have to spent massive amounts of TIME applying and trying to get funding for their research. Resources in the field are truly abundant , money however is not. This in turn leads to competition for allocated funding between different research groups. rather then working together for the objective. In addition some equipment supplied by companies is very expensive, this is not because of the material, but for profit and to fund development of further advances. This monetary way seems like a real obstacle to getting the important work done.
Another example is nurses in hospitals, overworked and under-payed. There would be enough nurses (and many ppl feel the wish to become a nurse, but choose other careers for economic reasons) to share the workload, but the hospitals have not enough money allocated to them in order to employ them. The same is true for doctors. This is a crime in the name of economy, as hospitals are run as economic units and spending is based on allocated budget. The basic needs for people, the need for a safe, warm, appropriate size (for example family) home to live in, and the need for fresh good quality food (not cheaply produced or stored food-economic shortcuts in order to maximise profit -) has to be met. This is very basic but can form furtile soil from which meaningful life can come, as the human spirit is freed from the idea of “making a living” surviving”, behaviour will reflect this. Therefore lets get rid of money, and get on with the important stuff. Money its a distraction, it draws the attention away from what matters. Many lives are wasted in banks and admin offices for big companies, even as top dogs, protecting things that are not ours to keep anyway… PEACE & LOVE

Nice comeback and yes the resource based society will work and abundance comes from caring for what resources you have and or will create with new technology. Life is emergent and therefore constantly recreating mass and the atoms of resources…therefore through proper care they are unlimited.

The resource may change form as the technology unlocks the potential of and the emergence of such. Clearly any system that unfetters the creativity of man and allows the goodness of spirit to blossom on its own would be far better than the separatist brainwashing experienced by all of us today. Controls and education are about doing what is right in a belief system that is uniform and understood as the driving force of love within each of us and embraced as a whole.

Change is about growth and growth is about change. It can happen very quickly if we desire it…or it can happen very slowly if we resist it. Ub either case…it is coming weather we like it our not…we are not in Kansas anymore!

Very well. Maybe the Venus Project is the idealistic side of thinking. However, maybe it’s just me being biased, but the way money works currently is not the way I’d like to have it (just take a look at the current financial crisis), so I like the idea of at least opening up a discussion about how to do things differently.

As an IT technician / former programmer I like to build systems that help people. But that’s not what I’m getting paid for, unfortunately. The saying, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions is very true here. We learn, educate ourselves in order to further humanity or create a better life and end up serving not quite what we expected. Everyone check your lives, do you really do something of value? Or is it just an illusion?

To me the venus project is basically a commune with amazing technology. It will work if the people living in it have the skills to maintain the technology. Idealy the type of education to teach the youths and adults who live on the commune will be ‘practical based learning’.

People living on this commune will have stronger relationships and have more time to them selves.

But in our monatary system our relationships are indirect and we spend too much time earning and spending money.

The main drive for having more money and wealth is prestige and not greed. The average earner in my country are richer than kings of the past mainly because of technology and cheap labour from other countries.

Having things requires time and energy, if people had stronger relationships with one another
recognizing we’d be better working with instead of against each other it would save alot of our time and energy.

This revolution must start from within and not be forced on others.

Although I am glad to see you creating a critical response to the movie (in the fact that it is always better in my mind to initially be critical of what you see, regardless of what it says), I must admit I don’t agree with your reasoning for a majority of the issues. Instead of simply attacking each thing I don’t agree with you on, I will just present some (I would like to emphasize ‘some’, because there is much more to the discussion than I have time to talk about here) of the reason that I agree with the ideas and views the film puts forth. But bare with me, because I am known to stray off topic from time to time, but I promise I mean well…

As I understand, the point of the film is to open up the general public’s eyes to the endless flaws and inequality that our current society faces. When it comes to the monetary system and corporate America (or any corporately controlled industrialized country), I completely agree with the film. It is an endless slavery that continues to suppress the masses. Currency cripples the possibilities of people. While the majority struggles to make ends meet, a few are capitalizing immensely on their misfortune. Not only that, thanks to the perpetual creation of false needs by advertising of the corporate elites (the few on the top of the ladder), the average joe is spending all of his downtime and spare dept (some call it money) trying to keep up with the latest worthless fashion trends and mind-numbing toys. I mean does it really come across as a coincidence to anyone that to today’s teens, getting the new 50 cent cd is more important than reading a classic piece of literature, or for that matter, reading at all? I mean honestly, it seems the only thing most people have an interest in reading anymore is what brand name is on other people’s shirts, so they know what useless piece of shit they should buy next. Those who control our capitalist society (yes capitalist, and not democratic) not only want, but NEED our citizens to be as dumb and ill-informed as possible. It is much harder to persuade someone who has taken it among themselves to gauge what is important to their well being, than those who live their lives based off what MTV tells them is important. If the people of our country were actually educated with the intent of making them truly more intellectual and productive citizens, our technology and possibilities would be 100 times what they are today. But that is not what our educational system does. Instead it prepares people to blindfold themselves, and jump headfirst in the corporate toilet. Instead of spending our education trying to expand our mind in unique or pro-active ways, we are told by our parents and advisers to study something that will ‘land us a high-paying job’ in the future; which makes the fact the Business degrees are far-and-away the most popular major of students in the US. I guarantee you, if you were to poll every American college student, and ask them why they want to go to college, their answer will be along the lines of; “so I can get a job and make a lot of money.” It is disgusting how obsessed we are with money. We center our lives around it and are willing to do anything to acquire it. And it really is a global epidemic.

However, if money didn’t exist, I think we would have the ability to prosper as a species, not just a country. Now, I am not so vain to think that simply by removing the monetary system, everything will suddenly be blissful. No, it would take much more than that. It would take the complete restructuring of our society from one of personal survival and self interest, to that of interdependence on one another. I believe that everything is culturally learned. We are who we are, based on the way we were raised, and if people were taught from a young age that to succeed as a whole, the human race needs to work together, and contribute as much as possible to creating equality of resources and happiness for all, I honestly believe that such a global society could be possible. Now, you may call this a type brainwashing or something, but I don’t think it would be any different from the way we live now. The only differences would be that instead of being told from childhood (as we are now) that the most important things in life are how much money you have, what you look like and how successful you are materially, we would be told that what is important is how intelligent you are, how much you can help others and how good of a person you are. I mean the only reason people have a need to stand behind capitalism is because they are afraid they will lose (a) their ‘stuff’, or material possessions, and (b) their freedom to choose what they can and can’t have. But in regards to (a); if you had a society where everyone had equal access to virtually anything they would want, then there would not be a fear of losing those things. Plus, in an ideal society, because there would not be corporations constantly advertising and polluting people’s minds with the desire to have things that they don’t need, there would be a great reduction in what people wanted materially. In such a society, we wouldn’t want that new pair of shoes, or new furniture because people would not be so shallow, and materially driven. As for (b); people would still have the freedom to choose what they did and did not have access to. In fact, such a society would be a democracy in the truest sense, because we would all be equally informed and educated citizens who could all vote on the issue at hand. Thus, since we would all be educated and would have the common good in mind as opposed to our own selfish desires, we would be best fit to decide our own fate. The majority vote could be the deciding factor, which would take out the need for elected politicians who are corrupt and selfishly driven. In a society like this, people would desire something much greater than material wealth; they would desire knowledge. I honestly believe that if you live in a time and place where we are not imprisoned by our necessity to constantly work and pay off the junk we are constantly buying, and we have access to all the basics (food, water, clothing, shelter), we would be able to devote ourselves to knowledge in the purest sense. We could learn just for the sake of learning. Not learning, so we could figure out ways to capitalize on technology or people who are less fortunate, but rather so we could create new technologies that would makes the lives of those less fortunate easier. It would be the only society that every truly cared about helping others, because buy helping them, we are in tern helping ourselves. every time we make somebody else’s life easier, we give them that much more opportunity to give back to the whole. It truly is co-dependent founded society.

I will stop here for now, but honestly, I have just barely scratched the surface. There is so so so much more to it, but these are just a small handful of initial thoughts I had. I would be happy to hear feedback on my thoughts though, so we can continue to refine all our individual ideas into one unified and productive idea.

I agree with you Tim. I think if we want change we are going to have to kick start this our selves instead of waiting around. I believe teaching people practical skills that keeps them and others alive directly and with a greater inner and worldly awareness is what is going to bring change.

Combining the mathamatical, horticultural and other essential practices for living we can improve our lives for the better.

The Venus Project is only one of many. There is the Eden project in the UK and many others. Also look up seasteding.

I found this post very interesting and it seems to have given rise to quite a discussion. I just want to give my thoughts on the Venus Project.

The Venus Project, although a very thought provoking and intriguing concept, is not something which IMHO can be created in the near future. In order for such a society to operate, humans are the ones who must first change. The way we are raised, the beliefs instilled within us and the the way in which our minds operate must change. That is why there will only be world peace once the love for power is overcome by the power of love. It seems we are still far from reaching such an understanding.

The point is not for someone to tell you how many bananas you can eat every day, but for all of us to realise that we are here to further ourselves and humanity evolve in all ways possible. And this cannot be done unless we learn to live in harmony with both the planet that helps maintain our physical existence, as well as all the people around us.

This requires us to evolve to a point where our attachment to materialistic desires is overcome by learning to love, first and foremost, ourselves just the way we are, and learning to give love to everyone and everything around us.

Such a radical change will only happen once the current status quo is completely overthrown, on a global level. This requires humanity as a whole to experience an awakening, a desire to evolve beyond what has kept us restricted in the past. I suppose such a happening may come about either by another World War where a lot of people are killed, or if some perhaps more intelligent being comes to our planet and helps bring about such a change.

What must be understood is that there cannot be a perfect world without perfect beings. We are all perfect in every way, but we are far from realising our own perfection. A perfect society and world cannot exist with imperfect beings. This is why ideas such as the Venus Project are possible, but probably not going to happen in the near future. I doubt that all Governments and individuals will suddenly have a change of heart and decide to concentrate all their efforts on improving all aspects of humanity, rather than creating missiles for pre-emptive attacks.

Just my two cents.

Thanks all for this very interesting discussion.

I think the film should have introduced the Venus Project only at the end, as one example of an alternative to our current system. If it had to be mentioned at all. It is a distraction to very real problems we are facing in the US and that will likely become global.

We are going bankrupt. Approximately half our 11-trillion-dollar debt is to the fed reserve bank, the other half foreign countries and corporations. We put two supposedly conservative Bushes in the White House and between them they nearly doubled it. That debt is going nowhere but up with Obama. A global economic collapse seems likely if the US fails.

Reducing the debt has its own consequences, because of our wonderful fractional reserve system comprised mostly of “checkbook” money. I did not believe it actually worked that way at first. I started looking at the official web sites (a morass, really) then finally ended at Wiki. It truly seems to be a kind of pyramid scheme with the poor bastards at the bottom left holding the bag. Or in this case, not holding one I guess.

Maybe we could seize all fed reserve/central bank property, charge them with racketeering or something, hang them, and restructure. Hell, maybe we could even say they’re suspected terrorists and just put them in prison indefinitely. As well as seize their property. But more likely we’ll devolve into a completely fascist global region. These people read 1984 and were inspired.

The VP promo is, like the project itself, a nice gesture, but we’re screwed, and concrete, immediate changes need to be made. Then we can all focus on actually enforcing existing laws against monopolies and war crimes, completely restaffing the FCC with ethical people, reforming patent laws, and so on while we wait for our ascendancy.

Willie, that was a great rant. I almost feel guilty being a US citizen, but resource use rises with industrialization. Take a look at China now. We’ve done a much better job protecting our natural and historical resources through a century of the industrial age than they’ve done in five years time. Not that I agree with our materialist trends, but we’ve got lots better stuff wrong with us than what you griped about. Hell, our government is behind the killing of thousands of innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq (to name just the recent areas) and we annually affirm our support of the suppression of Palestinians who were robbed of their country to begin with! And all you can say is “You egotistical materialists.” We are so much more.

You know I agree with the one poster.

True…what they are proposing may not work…at all. This is very likely.

However, what we have now, The system we have now…is a big steam roller machine that empowers people and fuels the fires of GREED, LUST, ENVY, MALICE, even HATE! Among others. The system that we have now is going to kill us.

Power corrupts, absoulte power corrupts absoultly!

It is quite appearent that the current system is not Working either. Why? Because its “Top” heavy…this system is going to drive the machine of war till our whole existence is wiped off the face of the planet.

MONEY…needs to go in my opinion.

Weather its the Venus project or not.

comprendan a la naturaleza..y acepten la competencia…desquicio psicológico, desarrollen la psicopatía, el ser humano no es más inteligente de lo que pueden definir, lo demás no es real, es utopía, olvídate de los demás y podrás vivir mejor, solo envargalos.

los animales luchan y compiten a diario, nosotros lo hacemos de otra forma, la jerarquía es tan sólo una batalla de mentes, pro no una derivada de la realidad….somos logica problable..pero nadie lo entiende.

solución: creación una nueva especie, y aniquilarse mentalmente, la igualdad es un numero complejo que nadie puede definir…necesitamos que dios nos diga que hacer,¿quien es dios?..la mente más poderosa…pero es indefinible, no categorizable, si yo creará una especie, nunca la haria semejante, es inviable hacerlo.

Another quality installment from Peter Joseph,
I was quite alarmed at this over tendenancy to have us all join The Venus project though.

Surely that’s thinking waaaay too far ahead,
we need to spread the message that there is even a problem first, let alone that we have a very primative THEORY for a solution.

Most of society don’t even know what they’re missing yet!!!!

If you want to help humanity in anyway. Just spread the message that the Zeitgeist films even exist. Invest in non-corporate media formats like the Internet News Channels that the film suggested, get them to raise the issue and have it broadcast across the world.

Because If you take Zeitgeist to the Fox Network,
They’d shoot you for being a terrorist…….

I am probably not as well versed as you Point and as well read, however I do believe in the idea of logic. Based on this is…..I feel there maybe some logical flaws in your argument.

For example, I feel the point of “unlimited resources has been made out but misinterpreted. The movie clearly states the “idea” of proper management of the earth’s resources to “feed, educate and house everyone.” The whole idea here is that we push towards that goal, achieving it obviously will be hard for a number of reasons but I don’t believe its because we do not have enough resources.

Recently, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett were able to vaccinate how many poor African children??….
Obviously we are talking about 2 very elite individuals, and its not like they gave up all their life savings for this, but my point here is….we are talking about two people with so much wealth; as if they did not choose to do that honourable deed, those kids would not be vaccinated. The idea these two individuals can have so much wealth only exists in a society that works in the monetary system as described in the movie. Therefore this system much change, as there is no justification for such inequality to exist as I have just proved that the “resource”, in this case, vaccines have been provided on an “abundant” bases and was readily available.

Now I have read how you mention, who will direct this change, how will you decide who gets these resources? But change takes time….the way make things out to be….it almost sounds like your complaining about a fictional person ahead of you in the line trying to get the next XBOX 360….or a new ultra thin flatscreen TV. In time we can probably argue those points….however, the real step for change is to start by helping those who lack the fundamental needs for survival (food, shelter, education). As this change has been proven possible by Bill Gates and Warren Buffett why hasn’t there been a more global effort to do this?. Are most of the elite as “generous” as them???….ofcourse not.

A global and open conciousness is required….to be united which the idea of “closed doors collabration”…..and there must be “trust” between the open public and the “leaders” for this change. Maybe we are not at this point of society yet….but I am someone who agrees with the movie…that this society is much better than our current one.

looking forward to your response

I haven’t read all 119 comments but only a smattering of them. The most immediate thing I want to say is “We’re so screwed!”

Has anyone been watching “the hearings” around the bailout on CSPAN? Watching all of those politicians posturing for the voters will give you a good window into what these guys are really about. They have no idea what to do except to point fingers at each other.

Kinda like Zeitgeist.

IMHO we have gotten too big and too complex for the human mind to grasp. There are way too many zeros, even for Henry Paulson. I’m not saying we’ll go down any time soon, but we will continue to blindly go down this crazy road we’re on for a very long while, fiddling with the edges and pretending we know what we’re doing.

I just hope there is some semblance of a viable system left when this is all over.

Ron Paul for president!

I don’t think that capitalism itself is the problem; I think the problem is that democracy is ineffective in keeping it from running amok. Who can deny that capitalism is responsible for mankind’s greatest advances?

Greetings…!!

Here’s my previous comment, just for the recent viewers who may have seen the previous one…

I had the idea that “Point” was someone intelligent enough to argue with, but apparently I was wrong, I wish however to thank to all of those who brought important issues to this discussion.

“First of all let describe my position regarding to this so you can make a informed judge.

I consider myself a deep philosopher and I believe most of the ideas mentioned in “Zeitgeist” since I can remember…

However there are righteous points on both sides, so I’ll try to be impartial on my opinion…

The capitalist arguments ARE VERY STRONG in general, and thats why they have sticked for so long, because our nature makes us by design ambitious and it’s quite logical if you have in mind that as an imperfect species that we are we will never be absolutely happy with anything because we will always want more than we already achieved…

However, for our own good we should find another system of society (whether the stated in Venus Project or any other) fast because it’s proven that the current Capitalist system it’s destroying us as a hole, and it’s having us destroying the natural resources of the planet, not to mention the barbarities that we have been making to other Species on the Planet and even to the Planet itself…!!

It’s simply an issue of resource management because the current system promotes competition and self preservation and also other forms of individualism, and the reason why that’s not good is because we can only evolve faster if we do it as a Hole (referring to Human Specie).

One of the main issues discussed in here is the use of technology and energy production
and how it could affect our evolution, first of all the idea that unlimited and renewal Energy wouldn’t solve most of our problems is RIDICULOUS… Think about it, with more energy you can improve technology using less resources witch in turn would drastically reduce pollution and the use and destruction of natural resources also sparing the environment of the atrocities we currently practice…

As a matter a fact, if we where ever visited by aliens, I’m quite sure they did it with advanced energy production systems, because such a long journey using the amount of matter that we use to produce the energy required would be unsustainable not to even say IMPOSSIBLE…

Finally I also must say that most of the topics I read in this page was referring to ideologies that where conceived at the image of the “Institutionalized Powers” that we where trained by our environmental variables (Family, Religion, Geopolitical situation, Etc…) to respect, so it’s hard for us to even try to understand even more embrace such changes to the hole society system, but anyway most of us should at least try to have some critical thinking about where are we leading the future of our kind because you discuss “how much one’s going to lose an so one” and “the individual rights” and “Who as the right to make decisions…” well forgive me for my presumption but that’s a little bit irrelevant because if we destroy the Planet so bad putting ourselves in the urge of Extinction believe me, this matters will be pitiful compared to the REAL PROBLEMS WE ARE ABOUT TO FACE…

It’s a cultural issue that affects us all, so we should try to be more constructive if we really want to create a system that is better that the current one, because one thing is UNDENIABLE the system we have today it is not a sustainable reliable system, witch is what we need if we want to survive as a Species… ”

Thank you for reading this…

I’ll appreciate any comments…

I think the Venus Project is a great idea. The abundance of resorces is a brilliant concept….and for free, forever, and for everyone. If there is more than enough resources to go around, its useless to try and currupt such a system. It’ll be like trying to sell air and tap water. But the movie states that it wont be a perfect system…just better than the current, which doesn’t take a genious to figure out the truth to that statement. As long as genuine ideas of “real” freedom are being discussed we can only move in a more positive direction, and the Venus Project is the true meaning of freedom as long as technology is used for the greater good of all mankind to be free to look after our planet and each other.

On the project’s web site, they state that the resource-based economy is going to be driven by a supercomputer, since no human being could possibly weigh all the necessary variables (it’s in the city link I think). Doesn’t that beg the question? In their “cybernation” of society (their word), who writes the program? You? Me? Jacques? Who decides on the relative weight to give the variables or even what variables to use?

And does it matter? It is nothing but a design economy, just another form of collectivism really. Yes, they will “free” the individual from forced labor, religious indoctrination, poverty of your purse and spirit. This has been tried before and the dogma is practically the same! If history’s of any value, the guys doing the programming will be the guys at the top. And the rest of us will learn to be hackers just to shoe our children.

Anyone here from the states ever been on welfare? Visited a project where recipients of it are housed at low or no cost? Cheap housing, free food, cheap clothes, free education. Kind of like the Venus Project, just without the stainless steel appliances. The human race on welfare is not a pretty picture. I wish it were different, but it’s just not so. No offense to anyone on welfare. I’m for it rather than the alternatives. But it’s just not any kind of happiness or fulfillment engine for the most part and I’m not sure taking money entirely out of that picture (which it is already to some degree) would make it better.

I think we need to consider less extreme options, like buying back the fed, campaign finance reforms, breaking up monopolies (particularly in the media), energy reforms. No one alive today had any say in the selling of our government, but the fact is, we probably would do it again without even realizing it. Somewhere between Jefferson and now, we bombed in a big way and now we’re sitting clueless in the crater. Anyhow I don’t know if a grassroots campaign for those things is possible in this country any longer. But we’ve definitely got a better shot at them than realizing the dreams of the Venus Project.

BTW, Alice, the only thing I hate worse than watching our elected politicians is watching the idiots they’ve appointed to the FCC in session or hearings. Completely amoral jackasses who must believe we’re even dumber than they are, which really is an extraordinary stretch despite our general stupor. Amazing really. Well there was one reasonable, ethical guy, but he resigned in protest I think.

To: spandrel

You’ve made an excellent point by asking “who writes the program?” the machine would be as much “untrustworthy” as the man who wrote it, or in other words, it would go against the basic principal of freedom and equity…

However i must disagree with your analogy with the Welfare System because that system depends on the monetary system…!!

And once and for all, about the VP, of course that it is an idealist visions with some eccentricities worth mention, one thing is having technology help us, another is making important decisions for us… “Matrix” and “Terminator” anyone ?

But the base of the idea is that Monetary System has to go…

Do you really think that our current System is THE ONLY WAY, THE BEST SYSTEM for us to grow, is this the best way to relate ourselves to the Planet and our surrounding environment…!!??

Thank you for reading this…

Appreciate any comments…!!

Hello.

To begin with, I state that I am not completely against the Venus Project, but I find your arguments quite solid against removing the monetary system.

It would be a world of chaos, and there are and will be people that, no matter how better the education system is (and how much the VP project will invest in it), will have problems integrating into a world where everything is for free. So their few numbers might bring chaos into the system.

I think the VP-ers are thinking in such a big picture that they do not see the small steps that everyone should take before making drastic decisions (like eliminating the “money”) and should strongly consider discussing their options.

We do not want to counter the actual ideas with arguments that will destroy them, but rather try and improve on them. Try to find out if the purpose was something that you agree with. If so, then we have to consider improving on that solution, or adding and removing parts that do not work.

About 50% or more of the Zeitgeist Addendum movie is based on strong arguments and consists of very good ideas.
Improving our energy infrastructure by harnessing more of our natural sources
Take this and let’s analyze it.
The purpose is very good and the scope of it is to have more eco-friendly ways of generating energy. On the other hand, we should also emphasis on building better energy-saving products. But what happens when we are trying to upgrade the whole system of energy generators? Won’t that be very energy-consuming and therefore we allow the current power generators which run on coal and fuels to pollute the ecosystem more? We should have to make sure that the process is not that damaging, and I think this is done best by taking little steps and assessing the possible results and all the variables in this equation.

Also there are few others in the Venus Project description from the Zeiteist Addendum movie that I think they haven’t given thought to all possibilities. It also seems that they are trying to promote their designs, but that’s a different issue.

This was just an example of what can we do instead of arguing on things like “I want to marry Jessica and I want to have an island of my own” (sorry for not citing exactly). What is this example for? To just make a point that people will want to be greedy and pursue their goals no matter of what are the consequences? This we are trying to overcome now, and to upgrade from the greedy bastards that we are (no offense, nothing personal) now, to better and understanding human beings.

So instead of fighting on small issues that we know we can’t reach consensus on, we could join our thinking forces and become like a team who is trying to make the world around us better.

Thanks for your time and I am looking forward to your reply.

Cristian

I for one would not believe in such change. Eliminating constants in the world is simply impossible. I would simply not adhere to the idea of a faux-communist idealism. Without constants such leadership, it would be impossible to maintain order in such a society. Sure, the movie exposes parts of the realities but fails due to its advertising nature. Money itself is not evil and the purpose of which is to regulate and maintain balance. It’s just greed for resources and power that messes up things.
As a comment for the “documentary”, sure it may get you convinced on the first half then now you begin to assume that this was just 2 hour advertisement. I don’t even live in America to begin with. How am I and my country as a whole benefit out of this? It’s totally unrealistic

It seems like the tide is turning against Zeitgeist.

A very interesting thread.

I think the last posters agree that we need to work with what we’ve got and that it is unlikely that a new system could be substantially better than the one we’ve already managed to foul up.

The last election should give us some insight into how unlikely it is that any substantial change is imminent. Sensible politicians like Ron Paul don’t have a chance in hell because most of America is starry eyed and ideological. We like our rock stars and we like to stand in large venues with tears in our eyes. We don’t really want change. We want promises and bail-outs, unaware that such things get us into even deeper trouble.

If the Venus project should work on anything it should be to instill human beings with more ethical standards and a strong sense of personal responsibility.

Tim,
It would be difficult to determine which came first… the tendency to be starry eyed or the media which exploits it.

They probably evolved together.

James,
“The successfull will grow and the others will either die or learn from the ones that work.”

This sounds like capitalism. Just don’t let the politicians near it, because then the unsuccessful will get subsidized and/or bailed out.

THE LEGACY OF EARTH

so there’s no hope, then. if we are stuck with the monetary system, then there will always be people who could not compete enough to pay their debts. there will always be people that are homeless and starving in the streets. there will always be children in 3rd world countries dying of malnutrition and preventable diseases. there will always be greedy selfish businessmen and bankers who prey on the downtrodden and the gullible. education will always be available only to those who can afford it, leaving all others ignorant and useless. there will always be pollution because there is no profit in renewable, clean energy sources. and we will NEVER see a world where everyone is taken care of because we are all too selfish to do what is RIGHT and NECESSARY and to do our part for the making of a better world for ALL. this is the legacy of earth. this is what we leave for our children and future generations.

we are so quick to dismiss the ideas of others, but what ideas have we come up with? where are the more feasible solutions to all the problems that have plagued our world for generations. we can’t just wait around for everything to solve itself. peter joseph and jaques fresco may be wrong in their view of a better world, but at least they tried to come up with something. we need to stop tearing down the ideas of others and concentrate on bringing forth our own ideas. we ALL know we can do better than this. all we have to do is make the effort to find the right solution. humans are wonderful, powerful beings and if we focus on what’s important we can do almost anything. what’s the alternative? i can’t even think about it.

for those of you who have children, look at them now and then tell yourself that this is the best that they are ever going to get. that they don’t deserve a better world than this. that the rich and the greedy will be the only ones able to live as they chose and your kids can only be slaves to the system. can you do it? if so, you’re better than i am.

I ate this blog up, and read all the comments straight from the beginning.

I am not some kind of doctor or economist or anything like that. I am a simple student,albeit one who loves watching philosophically inclined debates.

I am intrigued by the different points of view of different people. While it is true that it is difficult to decipher what is the truth and what is incorrect from all the fancily wrapped up bullshit, the truth, or at least part of it, will always leak out.

I just wanted to comment or rather respond to those who asked WHO would take care of things like farmland for our food, the geothermal indicator,so on and so forth.

Human beings cannot simply sit on a beach sipping a piña colada and stare at the sky for a lifetime. It cannot be done. A human will easily get bored. This is a few year’s fantasy at best. A human will enjoy this fantasy while it lasts, then a human will do what it does best: work. Work is essential, as it is a time killer, yet the most productive time killer.

Now some may disagree, but let me finish. Everybody is created different,correct? Therefore, everybody has different tastes, different viewpoints, different ideas, etc. For example, some of you may like History, some may like Medicine, and some may like Computer Tech. The list goes on.

A human being will generally do something he/she likes. Let’s just say I love building computers and programming and making circuit boards, etc etc. I will go on and do what I like. While doing these, I will inevitably gain experience, which inevitable will lead to a broader knowledge of these things and eventually, I will discover something new about whatever I am doing.

“A painter will enjoy sharing his work MORE than actually selling it”

This is true for anything. If your passion is the environment and finding “greener” ways to live, you will proudly show off your discoveries of newer ways to live green to the world.

A person who likes to operate and maintain and manufacture and test machinery will proudly maintain his creations and improve upon it.It is a question of pride, something we all come to get. We can apply this to the “guy who’s gonna check your geothermal indicator while you’re listening to music in your boxers”, right?

So technically, if everybody works on their PASSION, they will, without a doubt, improve it one way or another. In a VP-type (doesn’t have to be necessarily VP) world, these improvements would be proudly shown off, without the fear of having to buy a patent or copyright for it. Now since most human beings dislike repetitive jobs, and repetitive jobs are usually easy once you get the hang of them, we can leave those jobs to machines, and let ourselves, as highly intelligent or incredibly idiotic we may be, exploit or own knowledge, to further the standard of living in this world.

If you are worried about the oh-so-emotional part of this, let me remind you of a human characteristic EVERY NORMAL HUMAN BEING should have experienced at least once in their lifetime: LOVE. Believe it or not, love has an amazing power, and it is much more powerful than all of the manufactured “characteristics” this monetary system has brought us. Someone brought up an example of a two babies in a room with two big shiny objects. Of course, the first reaction would be domination. Greed is human nature. BUT the baby that took the two shiny objects will look at the state of the other baby and realize how cruel it had been, and therefore share or maybe even give both objects to the other. That, my friends, is love. Love is not taught, and unfortunately it is not as practiced as greed.

This post was aimed to be improved over time, meaning I am very open to all replies. I do not post this as an insult to anyone’s intelligence; this is simply my two cents.

Some threads just attract a lot of attention. This one is amazing. Perhaps that is because the movie and the VP movement get at something so basic about human existence.

There are those who are drawn to the idea of a much better future and there are those who are skeptical that anyone or any idea can actuate the change which will be neccessary to build that future. This perhaps describes the entire history of the human race. The push and pull which naturally occurs between the conservative and the progressive.

Thomas Sowell in his book “The Vision of the Annointed” describes this confict in detail. One of the aspects of the conflict is the idea of unintended consequences. We have seen a lot of this lately. One example would be the United States’ invasion of Iraq to get rid of the horrible Sadaam Hussein and in the meantime unleashing the long suppressed hatred of the factions which live in that country. Another would be The United Nations sending aid to impoverished nations only to have that aid end up in the hands of violent armies.

It seems that for every plan there will be a counterplan and for every idea of aiding some, others will pay a price which they did not agree to pay.

I live in the United States and have my basic needs met by this society. When I watch video of children in third world countries living in squalor, I cringe and I might be moved to send a check. But why are these things happening?

Why do the armies of the Congo slaughter their own people? Can anything we do stop this when the people who live there seem to have so little regard for one another? And can the West be blamed for this? Some would say yes. They say it is colonialism which has driven the third world nations of the world to such depravity.

I am not so sure.

I will agree with Twonto that at least the Zeitgeist folks have taken the time to propose a solution of sorts and that’s a lot more than I have done. The best I can say is that somehow throughout the history of humanity we have managed in fits and starts to improve. It seems to be the way it’s accomplished.

I will say that the free market seems to be the very best idea with which to accomplish change. However it really doesn’t exist. There is so much manipulation that it can’t operate as intended.
That’s why I supported Ron Paul’s presidential bid because he embodied the closest thing I know to free market thinking. You can see how far that went. Neither party wants some guy like Paul in power and so the media didn’t even bother covering his ideas except as a side note.

No solutions here, but I am thinking about this time as a crossroads for the human race.

A project led by few people can’t cover everyting at its first stage. Criticizing an effort is easy then doing something for our planet. I think every person can send suggestions to the VP, and the best ideas will be taken into consideration.

This project reminds me of Linux, and Venus Project can also be developed by all people for everyone’s benefit.

“Space is limited, there is no way that everyone can have x number of mansions and beach houses?”.”

First, one must not have more than 2 houses.
The best places can not be owned by an individual, but organized in a way that everyone can enjoy it, like resort hotels. One must not own best places, they should be public, but you would be able to book an appartment etc at any beach for certain time. And this is just one of the ways how to solve this.

Unlimited resoureses vs unlimited stuff.

People should be taught to esteam things.
If one breaks a new car/thing through his fault or ignorance he/she will not get a new one for sometime, but she/he can be given a bycicle or other transportation means instead or take a public bus/train/ etc. For example if one breaks something through his fault within warranty period, he will not get nothing instead till the end of warranty period, say 1-3 years depening on the thing he broke.

Who gets technology first?
Nobody untill certain batchs have been produced to be send to all distribution centers, the supply later is adjusted based on consumption of the users. Say, you have a local distibution center website, you place a request, come and pick it up.

The VP is just a start, the rest can be resolved / adjusted with time.

Sadly enough the architect of the poorly written article has a conscience the size of an atom, thus defending something that he considers to be right (Monetary system). Broaden your level of awareness and realize things must evolve to survive. How do you think to United States came to be? Through questioning a broken system (Economic Crisis Anyone?) and acting out their desire to be free through revolution. O.o

If we think about it, the US did in fact have a smarter way to work with the Greenback. I would say they regressed ever since the fed came into place.

Nice attempt, but your argument is flawed. Crime may come from the desire to obtain certain items and not money, but The Venus Project proposes that everything is free. So why would you steal something if you could just ask for it?

And regarding the problem of ‘Who gets the first 100 of item x’, the answer is more simple than you think. The people who ask for it first get it first. It’s called a queue. No class system required.

Oh, and who will design the machines and buildings and stuff? The population will. And what will their compensation be? Whatever that machine or building contributes to the society. It is as simple as that. Some people may choose to just loaf around, but that gets boring after a while. People will always have the urge to contribute something to society. People will be able to pursue careers that interest them such as being a musician or an architect rather than having to work as waiters or maids.

Yes I think you are right that people will always have an urge to contribute something to society because being seen and recognized is as a human being is an inherent human characteristic… even more so than greed.

I personally like growing food, preparing it, and giving it to others. Being in nature and surrounded by a community of loved ones brings me satisfaction that I will never get from a mansion. If I live in a society where there is no money exchanged for my services, I will continue to do it. And I will choose to do it more for people who are giving and less for people who are greedy.

I think if nothing else, the Addendum has hit home for encouraging people to seek to change themselves. Be conscious about where you spend your money, choose to stop participating as much as humanly possible in the society that we despise, and redistribute surplus. Take your energy away from slaving to maintain society and put it towards creating the things that ACTUALLY REALLY make you feel good (not the stuff that other people say will make you feel good). This is the most fundamental to the change that we seek. Once these fundamental things start happening (and they already are at a rapid rate… hopefully fast enough)then projects like the Venus Project will be sprouting up left and right.

Concentrate on all the ways things can be better, rather than all the ways they are so bad. Solutions instead of problems in every single aspect of your life.

Seek your true bliss, People! This is your human right and obligation! Then seek to spread your bliss, and you’ll realize that lots will fall in place to assist. And then all the sudden we’ll look around one day and say “Oh shit, we must be in Heaven!”

I watched Addendum last night and the only effect it had on me was anger. Anger towards the ruling elite and our terminally ill society.

None of the information provided surprised me. In our society, we are rewarded by displaying self interest. VP suggests we drop the incentive for greed by providing equally for all…. All well and good. I would love for a system like such to be implemented and to work. Nothing angers me more than injustice and in our society, it seems injustice is at the rotting core.

The VP has been decided to be the way forward by some. How do they suggest implementing the new society without using violence?

What makes them think that the ruling elite are going to give up their power? There would be a huge amount of conflict involved in implementing this. It is sad, but true.

Even if the system was implemented, there would always be separatists who wanted to revert to the monetary method. This ensures a continuous state of conflict and means the VP could never work.

Catastrophe is the only way to unite masses of people. A common aim of rebuilding society in the VP model would first require the previous society was destroyed. That could not be done without lives being lost. Some may think ‘you can’t make an ommlette without beaking some eggs’ but at what stage have too many eggs been broken?

I would love to believe in VP and think even its conception is a step forward in human development.

We need to think about realistic steps to implementing equality for every human being on Earth. It is basic human rights.

I have been thinking a lot about this movie, VP and the responses I have seen on this website.

As the comment by Dan has shown, Peter Joseph has been successful getting people riled up. But he’s short on solutions.

As far as “the ruling elite”, I doubt any scheme will eliminate that aspect of human society. Any scheme can and will be manipulated by the unscrupuous among us. I am not convinced by anything I saw in the movie or by anything I have seen in my life that those who will take advantage to the detriment of others can be eliminated entirely. Money is not the issue here. It’s human nature in all its complexity.

And I am also amused and somewhat appalled that so many describe our society as so corrupt and unredeemable. Look at any period in history and you will find people enslaved, unable to feed themelves sufficiently and unable to live healthy lives. The numbers of those unfortunates has been reduced considerably in modern times. We seem to lose sight of this when we condemn the western world we live in.

I am not saying everything is rosy and that we should not be eternally vigilant about bringing injustice and criminal actions to light and eventual punishment. We have the rule of law for that and we should make it our business to be informed and active.

But to throw the gains of the free market in the trash for the promise of some kind of unrealistic and ill defined utopian scheme is silly on its face.

It will never work.

As EO Wislon said “Socialism….nice idea, wrong species.”

Would just one of you pro-vp persons explain how we get from here to there because the people at the Venus Project DO NOT KNOW. They have nice pictures of VP cities, vivid portrayals of alternate power sources fueling their resource-based economies, but no help in understanding how we are to bring this into being or the nuts and bolts of how it would really operate once it was.

Anyone wondering why these points are being glossed over? Do any of you care to know how society is going to be made to operate under their system? Want to know what your duties will be? If we’re all following our passions, who’s gonna take out the trash? Maintain sewer systems? Does any one really have a passion to be a janitor? We do these things because they pay better than our alternatives PERIOD. In an industrial society, our choices are a competitive market or slavery.

Before someone pipes up about how we are slaves to bankers now, I would ask you to try to separate any pyramid banking schemes, corporate-lobbying, monopolies, and so on down the endless list, from what a free market could be. These things can all be addressed under our current system much more easily than they could under any other. The fault is ours. We elect the people that permit these excesses, we choose how to spend our money and where to keep it, and we generally divert ourselves more than we educate ourselves.

So to wrap up, can someone pro-vp please explain how such a system can be set-up and how it would operate if it were? Also, since it’s obviously gonna require at least as much initiative as fixing what’s wrong with ours now, I’d like to know how it’s gonna be better than if we did just fix those problems.

fortunately we in this day and age we have a way of communicating with everyone, like the forums were using now direct democracy can be achieved through the internet. Venus project can be a supporting role in a future system of things.

Wow! What a fasiating debate, I only wish I had time to read and digest it all thoroughly. However, in my opinion much of what I have read above is irrelevant in light of what I will share below.

Although I agree with much of what Addendum says about religion I must make one crucial point. Buddhism has been educating the world about the emergent and symbiotic nature of reality for centuries. It calls these two principles impermenance – everthing changes and is therefore emergent; and interconectedness – every thing depends on every other thing for its existence and is therefore symbiotic.

Buddhism also teaches that all suffering is due to desire, or always wanting our present experience to be other than what it is. To transcend desire is to transcend much of what is written above about the use of resources and structure of a new society. In order to transcend desire however, there is one vital resource that has not yet been mentioned yet in this debate. That resource currently lies hidden within each of our hearts and can be found if we care to look for it.

To be fully connected with the mystery of what lies within is to be utterly fulfilled in all ways at all times. Of course each body has vital needs to be met but being in touch with the exquisite beauty of each moment renders all other desires obsolete.

Look deeply inside, find your own innate fulfillment, live each moment from that place and the solutions to all societys problems will emerge.

first half of the movie was great and very informative … can’t say the same about the second half

i like the fact that the Venus Project that claims there will be no need for money, has an online store on its website, selling movies for MONEY. And that the “research center” is for sale for $550,000.

Hypocrite. Thats the end of the venus project.

This discussion is a waste of time beyond this point.

very good points made by alot of people here..

A couple of pionts i want to adress,tough:

In a society thats sincere with regards to education and understanding, we would face the world and its problems realisticly and not only feel a connection with nature and society, but understand it as well. Having an understanding of resourcecapabilities vs. human growth is essential to our survival anyways, so why is this a bad thing? A society that produces thinking people, (smart people that come up with smart solutions), would handle these and other problems in smart ways (e.i. colonizing the oceans,as purposed på VP, or even further: space.) The only limit is the human mind, wich when tapped properly, is infinite. If we understand the cause of problems, we might see how we can be part of the solution.

This would then again lead to people taking responsibility for their actions,based on knowledge. This would also work for the aspect of drugs, for example. Education and understanding is the key. Independent,free thought is encouraged.

Freedom is not doing and having what you want when you want it. Freedom is responsibility.

Responsibility for yourself is noble,and an absolute. Responsibility for yourself, seen in a larger context is the very definition of freedom. There is no freedom unless it is freedom for all. All things connect. We cannot avoid this point.

This is not communism. This is a society aware of its “one-ness”, but stil promoting the individual.

We make people on this earth good only by setting good examples. Not indoctrination.

With the monetarysystem gone,the banks,the marketing,the commercials,they all dissapear.No need for the constant propagation of consumerism. This will in turn curb the drive (wich I, like they say in Z, believe is human behavior caused by environmental influence) for the constant urging for material goods.

We do not solve problems with endless negative statements as “this will never work!”, “this is fascism!” and “what about all the suff that I want?!”. Instead, point out what you think is wrong and ask if there is a possible solution to the problem, or even better; endulge us for a few minutes (i know you have some to spare,hence your posts) and try to come up with a solution yourself!

I think we need to reconsider human conduct as it is today and remove powerstructures. The best way to do that is to come up with a better solution and start waking people up.

Work together. Stop bickering. Use your brains. Or we all perish as a failed human race. Peak oil is coming, and noone is taking actions as how to implement new energysources in our societies. This could get ugly folks. But maybe this is what its all about. Our final test. That ol’ 2012-age-of-aquarius-legend-type-of-shit.. Just not in the way people thougth. A spiritual understanding of our connection to this planet, and a realistic view on the worlds current affairs is what is needed. The way to a new society could be troublesome. But we can focus on solutions. Then we eventually win. Wake up and make a difference while we still can.

-A

(26 yrs,Oslo,Norway)

P.S. I am very happy to see that these debates actually contain words and thoughts of intelligent people in contrast of alot of other followers of movements revolving around “conspiracies” these days. That itself is a measure of value as to the importance of the topic. D.S.

Wow! Norwegian and such a great grasp of the English language. It puts our education system to shame.

I think those who are opposed to VP don’t trust others to be making decisions for them. We don’t think there is anyone wise enough to do that. I think we’d rather try to get along with our broken little system and try to work through the problems that way.

Looking at history, we can see lots of utopian proposals which have turned out badly and some even disasterously.

I believe in the free market and I like the idea of money. I don’t like greed or dishonesty, but see them as part of the human condition. As a person who lives in a free society I know that bad things and bad people exist, but they can even be viewed as an opportunity, such as in the profession of lawyer, policeman or alarm system salesman.

The only premise about capitalism that I am beginning to question is growth. I think there may be a time when people will stop being obsessed with it and may begin to be more satisfied or perhaps look into repairing and preserving what we have already built.

a bit more about what I see as a problem I see with “growth”.

My sister was an executive with United Airines. It was her responsibility to improve customer service which at the time was a problem for the company. At the same time United was aquiring new routes.

I asked her if it wouldn’t be wiser for the company to concentrate on making the service they had better…in fact excellent. She said that the model which every company in the US is following is that of growth.

I suppose this has a lot to do with the stock market, etc. But I think it’s unwise.

But I don’t think such a thing can be regulated. Regulations always create unintended consequences. And the people making the regulations always have unterior motives. Any change in behavior needs to happen freely and naturally as a reaction to circumstances.

Maybe the company that grows as quickly as possible without overextending is the one that leads the market, like an arms race whose goal is to maximize market shares. Corporations might fear that if they don’t they will fall behind competitors and eventually fail. I’m just speculating since I have no business background. And I’m also sounding a little like Jacques. But then I thought his observations in the film were interesting (even if his solution is a bit optimistic).

Tim, I think you are a bit extreme in your characterization of our society. Our conversation on this thread is evidence against it. The fact that you can get on your computer in your home, and with a little bit of typing, learn about nearly anything, read diverse opinions by experts in any field, and educate yourself with very little investment… All those things are evidence against what you say. You could buy reams of cheap recycled paper, print flyers about “the man”, and distribute it nationally. The worst you’d have to worry about from the state is a fine for littering. You might even be able to make a profit from it.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that our education system would be a poor value at a hundredth its price, and cable is about 99.9% crap anymore, but you know, they are just selling toothpaste. What is it? A conspiracy of toilet paper makers? I think you’re being counterproductive. Though I sympathize, the means to solving our problems is still available to we the people. We just aren’t.

“Any change in behavior needs to happen freely and naturally as a reaction to circumstances.”

exactly!and we cant change under the current circumstances. the only problem is how to make people realize the situation they are in. I mean, even the “truth&change”-movements are working against eachother now. Personally, Alex Jones was the one who, in 2002 (I think), woke me up to this shit we’re in.

Since then I’ve done my own research. discussions and serious thinking about history, politics, psycology, religion, wars, energy and such, and it all culminated into this movie. “Finally!”, I thought. This makes sense. Not as an Utopian dream, but as a startingpoint. A startingpoint for improving and better ourselves and our society.

Then i saw that Alex Jones invited the Zeigeist-director on his show and screamed at him through the whole interview. Claimed that John Perkins was “occult new age illuminati”-influenced when describing us (humanity) as one in Zeitgeist. Showing a picture of two palms making a triangle with the sun in the center..I mean,c’mon..

The people that rightfully distrusts their government have a tendency of paranoia. Wether we are “Constitutioners”, Truthers or Anarchists we have an inclination for letting anybody rule over us.

I am, in heart and mind, the latter and I understand these worries perfectly.

I do on the other hand understand that I have no more freedom than nature will allow me to. If the planet turns to shit and theres no animals or plants left, you can savor that “freedom” all you want but it wont do no good.

The point beeing, in this purposed VP-society there will be no human decision on how we expand and how much we consume. Nature makes that perfectly clear for us. We can only expand as long the earth allows us to do. Instead of watching the world get plundered and destroyed at the highest bid and distributed to those who can afford, we could calculate our biospheres carrying capasity vs. our resources and base a society on that. From here on there is no limit to what we can achieve.

I have read sci-fi-books too, and I know there are dangers in a techocratic society. On the other hand this type of society is inevitable. Not because of the “NWO and their evil plans”, but because of human ingenuity and creativeness. We develop regardless, but if we have a choice of living in a future dehumanizing monetary prison (with machines working against us) on behalf and in control of the elite, or having a resourcebased economy with education, community, equality, honesty and individual human progress as primary objectives (with technology on our side), what would you choose? This is the best idea I’ve heard to date!

Dont just say “we all watched Terminator and we all saw how that went” like its a nostradamic prediction, because its not. Its a movie. At best its a warning we should take into consideration.

Its important to find out the past present and future horrors of this world, but we cant perpetuate a constant wallowing in that horror. We must look for solutions.

I think control is going to be obsolete in a selfsustaining society. In this society we could find solutions with our minds rather than to try to control them with our systems. If you empower the people and they live as equals, there is no need for governance.

I dont know where I heard this saying, but I think it’s vital. I only know it in Norwegian, but I’ll try to translate it:

“A place where everyone thinks alike, noone really thinks alot”

I am not promoting agreement, I promote out-of-the-box-thinking. We are emergent, and this is the age of revolution. Your personal, and hence everyones revolution. Fuck you mr. Obama, THAT is change we can belive in!

..and regarding Spandrels concerns on “how do we get from her to there”: We simply start here.

Develop ideas,polish them,let someone break them,see if we can glue them together, and if we cant, we start on a new one. Dont be just a sceptic or a believer. Put that ‘ol ego aside and be both.

Involve people. See if this ignites sparks, because I think it will. That is the first step to getting there.

Massive worldwide collaborations between activists,artists,all levels of scholarship and the people to force a the governments to slowly decentralize and the military to disarm.

Close down wallstreet but keep the food and goods circulating. Then there would be just a greedy elite,with no powers.

Each nation use their own safer greenback-type monetary system, with a constitution to guard the people in this transitionperiod.

VP’ers focusing on keeping eachother fed and housed while working.

Implement scientists worldwide and have total transparency on their findings as to resources available,start worldwide implementation of the basic plan and develop from there.

Those who wishes to keep their monetary system does so. My guess is they would sooner or later join the cause and change to the VP-model if our society proved that it worked better. This is one quick proposal of an idea.

Transformation can be tough, but the earths got a timer too so we will one day be forced to do such a thing.

Isnt it better to do it informed and willingly, while we have the time, than to do it when forced by nature (and our governments) when its probably too late anyways?

This system we have now is static. How do we expect change to occur in a static system?

sorry for the long posts.

So I think I’ve come to the end of my participation in this forum. I initially found Point’s site after viewing “The Addendum” and looking for some additional materials about the film.

What I have come away with is that there are many people who lack appreciation for Western society as it is. I exclude places like Africa because of the mess it is in.

Perhaps this lack has to do with the youth of those people. I have repeatedly tried to offer that while not even approaching perfection, (whatever that is) our world is the best, most free, most prosperous for more people, more healthy for humans, and offers more opportunity for the common man than at any time in history.

If you can’t admit and understand that and be really grateful to be living now, I don’t hold much hope that any society you can create will be nearly as good and certainly not any better.

Cheers!
Alice

I can tell you are one of the many that has absolutely no faith in human ingenuity or the good that can come from a human being who cares more about humanities well being than “The power to purchase goods”….this is a planet of abundance…your mind can not see it because you have been conditioned to believe so….centuries ago you would have been the same man to defend the worlds flatness…yet….is it not round? A wonderful sphere of life! You have no real bases to say we live in a land of scarcity…so fuck off with your formal wording as if you are coming off in a legit manner…which you are not….you are certainly in need of some sort of spiritual upgrade! Good Luck on the pasture!

“I am sorry to say it but I find you naieve. You don’t have to read sci-fi to be concerned with the Venus Project’s rhetoric. Very similar things were said about communism.”

This is not communism. Individuality and free thought was the enemy of communism.

Ok, so everytime someone comes along with a good idea on how to change things, we just say: “no, we already tried to change the world once, and you saw how that went!”
Talk about a scary rhetoric…

“We already have a constitution in the US.”

I am sorry to say it but I find you naieve. You dont have a constitution, you have the Patriot Act I & II, you have a gigantic military industrial complex & the worlds most integrated intelligence agencies monitoring you(off, course not to protect you, like on 9/11).
But you’re right, you have some bits and pieces left, in light of this.. Your president swore that he’d uphold the constitution, only he did the exact opposite! And he was your president for 8 fucking years! Get my point?

(And i know what an amendment is, even though I’m Norwegian. I dont have a problem with you being rude, because your arguments dont stick. But please dont be so fucking condencending.)

“I don’t think, as you do, that this system is static….but then what the hell do I know.”

Yeah, what the hell do you know? A system of perpetual debt, the people on one side of the planet living off the other. Enormous corporations merged in with the body of politics to keep the world in this agony, with greed and growth as the only driving forces. Mortgages, mastercards and thirdworld-debts. A world that cant, and will never be debt-free. Never going to the source problems, just keep on patching up old broken ideas. Electing president after president with no change in sight. Coke- and heroin-money flowing like Niagara falls through wall street. New, environmental, clean energysources outed by Oil-conglomorates. Most of the population eating up the massmedia-lies, so they think its all well. All growth, no progress. Thats what i call a static system. Whats your criteria?

“What I have come away with is that there are many people who lack appreciation for Western society as it is. I exclude places like Africa because of the mess it is in.”

That is because we can do better. And we can do it this way without stepping over bodies (as we have done with Africa amongst others) in the process. And because people dont generally like the idea of handing over their lifes and responsibilities to organizations and institutions, since we really have the ability to take care of ourselves and our communities. That is IF we are told the truth about the state of affairs.

“…most free, most prosperous for more people, more healthy for humans, and offers more opportunity for the common man than at any time in history.”

Only omitting the fact that in order to be free we have to be part of a gigantic machine with no concerns for human or other earthly life, only profit.

‘None are more hoplessy enslaved, than those who believe they are free.’ Remember that citation?

I do, on the other hand appreciate living at this time and age. I love to travel (like we can today) and I stand in awe when I see what we have been able to build and achieve.

But like when I was in the Vatican; I admired the art and the gigantic constructions, but I also could see the bloody history behind it and be all out discusted at the same time.

I see the blessings of the western society, like education and free speech, as groundworks for thinking for yourself and saying smart & provocative things. This again forms the basis for changing the status quo. The internet and all the other advantages we have now are tools for changing the future, not arguments for keeping the system static.

And I’m not claiming I can make a better society than we have today. Haven’t you guys listened at all? WE can build a better society than we have today! If you dont think that, you’ve already given up.

Strange how people will lash out their opinions, and then say they’re done debating..

If i had to choose between the future that is currently infront of us and a future similar to that of the Venus Project, i would choose Venus.

To all of you that don’t agree, good luck!

Having read all of the comments posted here (what an interesting read) I have to say I tend to side with Point on this. I am a pragmatist, first and foremost, and tend to side with what works.

When approaching VP, one should always keep in mind that cultures develop from the bottom up. Every time someone tries to build a new culture from the top down the idea or movement only lasts a single generation. In worst case examples, millions of people die or are horribly marginalized.

There is a very simple reason for this. Human beings detest coercion, whether it is for a seemingly laudable goal or not. We do not like to be forced. We will resist doing what is arguably and logically “good for us” when forced. There is an innate tendency in humans toward the exercise of free will. This is one of the immutable laws of the universe as I understand it.

I for one would never take instruction or mandate from a machine nor the controllers of the machine (ie. programmers) about how to live my life, what resources to use, etc. You can argue that I do so now – but only as a matter of survival, not of choice, and I exercise my free will whenever I am able.

The only “utopia” I would ever support would be one that is arrived at through freely applied individual volition – IOW, freely chosen and entered into by all whom it impacts. Achieving this consensus takes us into the realm of politics, propaganda, marketing and religion – a nasty gray area where everyone has a differing opinion and results are as variant as human beings.

My main objection is that the idea is that it is not pragmatic. Utopian solutions are always predicated upon human behavioral change. One of the posters above rightly argued that the only way to achieve mass behavioral change in a short time frame is to use coercion – which, as I have asserted above – never works.

The Christian church is a great example of this. It all started with a simple idea – “Love thy neightbor” – and devolved into a power struggle over doctrines which tried to codify this idea into a set of human behavioral norms and then coerce these norms through the exercise of military power, political power, lying, theft, and the marginalization and execution of all dissenters.

The dissent arose because of the coercion and required the need to suppress it in order to get “everyone on board with the same way of thinking.”

It laughably devolved into a paradigm so at odds with the original intent of “Love thy neighbor” that now, in modern times, many Christians have become the polar opposite of this message and attack their neighbors at every turn for disagreeing with them.

The message I get from VP is “Evolve NOW, or else…” This is not helpful. I understand the desire behind it and I even understand those who argue for it. But it is a top-down solution that will inevitably deprive at least some of their right to self-determination, as all top-down, centrally organized solutions do – whether well-intentioned or not.

The needs and desires of each individual on this planet are as varied as the individuals. There is no “formula” that will create a perfect society. Shifting the responsibility for our own impact on this planet to a machine is not the answer. We need to be connected to our impact, not removed from it. Being personally involved with our own impact is what motivates us to expand and evolve as beings. It is how we learn and what catalyzes growth and change. Removing ourselves to a hermeutically-sealed, machine-controlled paradise will only make us lazy – no need to strive or accomplish anything because everything has already been solved. There would be a few socially minded individuals that would contribute volitionally and would bear the brunt of the work while everyone else played. Few would volunteer for the grunt work – sanitation, production, maintenance, etc. because no human aspires to the mundanities. Look at the wars in a basic household over division of labor! Do you think that most men feel guilty that they have been able to avoid the boring drudgery of “housekeeping” for most of history. I think not. More like they have taken advantage of it and used their extra leisure time to advance their own interests.

And if the social structure requires these “chores” to be dealt with and no one wants to do them, then they will inevitably be coerced. Machines certainly can’t handle all of the things necessary to maintain such a “liberated” society – unless it is an episode of Star Trek with replicators and sonic showers.

And, my argument doesn’t even begin to touch on individuals who seek power and status, or more wealth than the “other”, etc. Inevitably they would find a way to turn the system to their own ends. The US Constitution itself aspired to provide a framework in which individuals could pursue their own ends, unimpeded by a coercive government, and has been successfully (and sadly) subverted by the very types I mentioned above.

How do you stop such people from coopting the utopia toward their own ends? Again, coercion must be applied. And we are right back where we started.

One of the posters above suggested that “As we think, so we are.” It is true that who we are inside determines our state of being on the outside. This is where true evolution happens – on the inside – within our hearts and minds. Change the inside and the outside will follow – organically and naturally. This is not to suggest that coercive measures be used to force this change either. Various religions have tried this and the world is still as violent and barbaric as it ever has been – perhaps more so – but with better cosmetic veneers.

One cannot choose to value either the self or the whole and achieve any meaningful or lasting change. The optimal whole begins with each individual valuing him/herself first. A cohesive whole organically arises from this focus. An individual that values him/herself will take the whole into consideration. An individual that is coerced to value the whole above self, will seek to eradicate or subvert the whole in order to escape the coercion.

So, how is it possible to achieve a cohesive whole with billions of disparate individuals – all with different desires and goals and intents? It seems impossible to achieve without coercion – which is why coerced behavioral norms are so much a part of the fabric of utopian visions from NeoCon wet dreams to VP. This is the fly in the ointment and some of our best and brightest have spent their lives trying to figure it out.

I don’t know. I have some ideas but they are my ideas and seem right to me. They work for me. They might not work for other people. I think individual reponsibility is a good starting point. Taking full responsibility for your own actions. Love of self is another good tenet although our current culture teaches us to submit to authority and disregard our natural impulses. Respect for and tolerance of “the other” is also a good one. This takes maturity to practice. Working out our differences on a personal level instead of relegating this function to the government would also be great. Having dialogues with each other – presenting our different viewpoints and agreeing to disagree on some things. Finding common ground and working from there.

Finding common ground between adversaries has been one of the miracles of the Ron Paul rEVOLution. I saw vegans partnering with gun rights advocates – why? Because they agreed on at least two of his points – that we need to restore fiscal sanity to the US by eliminating the fiat money system and the federal reserve – and – that personal self-determination is the bedrock that leads to a greater whole ultimately. I thought this was a great thing although the MSM painted the ad hoc coalition of opposites supporting Ron Paul as loonie or worse. They couldn’t see the greatness of this coalition or what it portends for the future of America. Ironically, it is a coalition mostly of the youth of this country who seem to understand the concept of finding common ground with your adversaries and building from there.

And that leads me to the final rub. This process takes time. Consistent and determined application to the principle of finding common ground and building from there will actually make a difference long-term – in the way we create institutions, run our lives, our businesses, treat the environment, solve poverty, treat our neighbors, etc. But everyone wants the solution NOW because the world is going to end tomorrow, right? And the only way we can get it that soon is via coercion – a direction that will subvert the human spirit and set back all of the gains that have been made over the last millenia.

There may be workable ideas in VP. Great! Try them out on a small scale first with voluntary practitioners – IOW – use the free market to your advantage to beta test. If it is a truly feasible effort, it will catch on and become a new paradigm – organically and authentically. If however, it is simply another attempt to hurry up the evolution of human behavior in order to quell a fear-incited panic that we are doomed through the use of coercive mechanisms, then it will most certainly fail.

Thanks, Tim, for your elucidation. I have not reviewed the video though I did read the site. What lead me toward thinking it was a utopian effort was the nature of some of the comments (and the underlying desperation that some seem to harbor).

Perhaps we should view VP as one possible model for the future. This leaves the door open for other possibilities and directions as well. Some of the responses seemed to indicate a desire to achieve an “out with the old, in with the new” paradigm by next week. I was reacting to that. This is a particular flaw of the current environmental movement – impatience and alarmism. Idealists in a hurry get into trouble because they alienate so many through harsh judgements and not making room for multiple viewpoints.

To Alice:

It does appear, if you spend an inordinate amount of time on internet boards, that people are polarized beyond repair. They don’t listen or even pause to take another’s viewpoint into account. They fall prey to the false logic that what is right for them should be right for everyone, by coercion if necessary. Some of this assumed superiority triggers people’s guilt (because who isn’t imperfect?) which evinces harsh reactions.

The world is a mess if you calibrate it by internet content and statistics. But everyday I experience acts of kindness from those diametrically opposed to my philosophy and I find common ground with them. I have to – I am a business owner and as such it is incumbent upon me to be as neutral as possible and allow expression of viewpoints I find antithetical to my own course in life.

Yet, in the midst of the despair and the flaming attacks and general juvenalia, there are those who are seeking common ground, like Ron Paul for instance – even against the shrill criticism of the MSM and other nay-sayers.

What we need to remember to achieve hope, is that machines can produce change in the blink of an eye. Human beings, however, are wired differently and take time to change. We cannot expect human beings to be machines.

As to hope – it is out there. I humbly recommend some resources that have helped me achieve a “bigger picture” perspective of some new models that are being forwarded – aside from VP – which is only one in a sea of new ideas happening currently. You can search Google for all of these.

1. ClueTrain Manifesto – a fresh take on marketing tactics that includes the customer in the communication cycle and seeks to build a bridge of communication between business/corporate entities and customers.

2. The Industrial Hemp movement which seeks to educate on the incredible impact this highly benificent plant can have on materials and resource usage.

3. CowPower.org – an initiative in Vermont that is tapping our current food production model for alternative energy solutions. These enterprising individuals are not waiting for government mandates but are taking solutions into their own hands. Admirable and quite the best of American ingenuity being put into practice.

4. Changing World Technologies – which promotes a new system of waste management modeled on Mother Earth herself that could, if proven effective, transform the way we recycle manufactured materials, sewage, plastics, and animal offal – basically any carbon based waste – which is most of it.

5. In addition to Ron Paul, there are others working to create new money models. Do some reading at the American Monetary Institute.

6. The odd Ron Paul coalition itself and the fact that it draws from many walks of life and provides a common ground framework which many Americans can agree on.

7. Van Horn. Look him up and the work he is doing to build a bridge between elitist, affluent environmentalists together with inner city communities and the working classes with his “Green Jobs” program.

8. His work is echoed by the Apollo Alliance.

9. TED – a gathering of some of the best and brightest in Monterey California once a year to forward unique ideas and solutions about how to solve some of the worlds biggest challenges.

10. The responsible wealth movement. Sponsored by United for a Fair Economy. Responsible Wealth is a network of over 750 business leaders, investors and other wealthy people works to build a fairer economy through shareholder activism, support for the living wage, and fair taxation work. Small perhaps, but the conversation is happening none-the-less.

11. Search for this article: IT Outsourcing Services Offered by American Indians

12. StoptheDrugWar.org – an organization devoted to rescinding drug prohibition that is supported by cops – people who have a unique perspective on this issue having served in the trenches. Cops are the last people you would expect to support this but they make cogent arguments supporting their case.

There are many more, but you get the idea. We are experiencing a huge paradigm shift the likes of which the world has never seen. Most of the new systems models that are being floated about are in their nascent stages. But I believe that at least some of the ideas will prevail and present future possibilities that should give us all hope – with the exception of the few who benefit from the current status quo, who will, of course, fight the changes to secure their status. However, aren’t the elites going through a PR fiasco right now with the bank bailout? People’s faith in their bought leadership is also failing. Many are coming to realize that we have to roll up our sleeves and get busy – because our leaders are just not getting us there. That’s the pioneer spirit, by jove, and I believe in that more than anything else about America.

I find it highly amusing that many on this board who were at each other’s throats over VP found some common ground on the Bailout, or the FCC, or the MSM. Underneath our personal ideologies, we are all Americans, inculcated with the pride and promises of the Constitution.

I believe that Americans will ultimately shake themselves out of their spoiled reverie to meet the challenges of the 21st Century and in fact, lead a global transformation (aided and in some ways pulled along of course by significant contributions from the best and brightest of all nations). It has happened before…

I read several of the posts and finally got tired of the constant cycle, never ending spinning, and ruthless arguing. I think one of the main things you all need to realize is that without understanding and at least trying to see each others point of view we will get nowhere. The human race has been arguing over these things and things like these for thousands of years…do you think the worlds problems are going to be solved on this blog?
I don’t know shit about half the stuff i learned in both movies, but i do know that the movies were created mostly out of the desire for something better.

You can sit here and spit arguments back and forth, which in my opinion is mostly because a good majority of you like to argue. But that’s just it, people want power and they want the monopoly on the truth. The Venus Project has many great ideas, but it is also true in my opinion that human beings will never stop wanting more more more…not everybody, but the vast majority. Most humans want something better than what they already have. Something better, faster, more shiny, more valuable, more “stylish”, more modern, on and on and on. Given unlimited resources, even though i want to have faith in the human race…no i do not think greed or the desire to rule and have power will end. sadly.

I wanted to make this post just to point out that all you guys are doing is arguing. You all want to fight because you all think you are right. I stood on the outside and saw that you all made very great points, is that a bad thing? to say you all made very good points?

In my opinion the movie was mostly about love, the human consciousness and the fact that we need to move on out of our comfy cocoons, open our eyes to a brand new day and start something new. I think we all can agree that we need something to happen, well…here WE all are arguing and complaining and cat scratching about a friggin movie…at least the people heading the Venus Project have an idea huh? Do you think they log on to web sites and sit and argue with people, making the same points over and over and over and over again? dont think so, they spend their time trying to find a way to make your life better, my life better, and the lives of our children better…etc etc.

“If the intent is to achieve a more equitable distribution of stuff, and you believe that is desirable, it’s ironically much easier for that to be accomplished with currency. In reality when resources become abundant, money does not lose value, it gains value as it allows you to consume much more.”

i did not read all the way through your article… just the top and saw this line… which deterred me from reading anymore. CONSUME MUCH MORE is the DISEASE that is RUINING THIS PLANET. no one (actually there are many aware individuals that can) looks or finds WITHIN the meaning of life, happiness or love. they CONSUME MUCH MORE big macs and whoppers leading to heart disease and obesity, they buy BIGGER houses with MORE rooms, BIGGER tvs to watch manipulated media and marketing, MORE video games for their kids, BIGGER tires for their yellow H2 hummer parked in the garage, CONSUME MORE! very few seek or find peace in laughter with their friends (and if so it is only after 3 beers, 2 bottles of wine, a fifth of jack daniels and a joint – is that true laughter, or numbness from the pain of their daily lives?), peace and happiness in walking their dog in the park, watching a sunset and holding the hand of someone they care about, making a healthy dinner with family and friends with vegetables they grew in their organic garden. does a $50,000 Rolex tell any better’a'time than a $20 dolla timex?

i don’t know if the venus project will become a reality? there are many aspects of the life that they propose that appear viable to me… i feel they are just striving to get people to ‘wake up’ and realize there is a beautiful life out there just waiting for all of to enjoy… after we are done killing, judging and suppressing that is.

~namaste
josh

1st, who authored this “counter” article calling Zeitgeist and the Venus Project a Hoax? I would like to be one to say that it is no more hoax than the system we live in now!

Who said everyone would live in a 5000 sq ft mansion? That is not realistic as far as NEEDS go. I live in a house more than half that size with 6 people and I do everything within my ability to live as “green” as I can & am constantly looking to expand my abilities in this mindset. My goal is to waste less physically and monetarily.

I disagree that the creator of this film doesn’t understand the difference between money and currency, they explain it very well for the “stuff money can buy” is resources! That was what it is all about! This stuff and acquiring of it is what you are stuck on and that is also what the movie is about, moving beyond that mindset.

I fail to see how money DOES NOT breed power and influence. They go hand in hand! This is the way our world works now and it is purely corrupt. We are the consumers PAYING to be CONSUMED and that is where I agree with you about debt. Maybe our corrupt monetary system is the one issue we can all agree on, however no system in our minds can achieve an equitable distribution of stuff because it is the individual who determines what something is worth for them self. Not everyone values each thing equally. Some people would rather burn wood or recycled chips rather than pay a heating bill. Some people don’t like animal fur so they purchase man made materials etc.

I enjoyed how the movie celebrated the myriad of ways to meet our most basic of needs that because of our current corrupt monetary and governmental systems are being halted altogether. This is where I disagree with whoever wrote this article, not everyone with money would LOVE to see an abundance of resources for all humanity. I think the opposite to be true; they need to keep a healthy balance of consumerism and indebtedness to the corrupt system for it to function. They need us to need the system, stuck on a never-ending treadmill of lies. The best example of this is needless and mindless purchasing of goods that we do not need which breeds more debt and waste. It sounds like we have become accustomed to living like our government lives.

Prices are not the best guide to know what people want even though we shouldn’t be working so much on WANT but rather NEED. Look at the price of gas. The supply is there and the price is played with as well as production to drive up the price. People slowed the consumption and it was something the did not want to have to do. This is because it isn’t a free market. Just let WalMart drive the price down low enough on an item and you will find those who will purchase it regardless of even if they want it or not! I see it all the time. Simply reckless. As hard as it may be to find a buyer, with the way we have been trained I could probably sell our government for a buck!

I don’t think that the Venus Project is working on the same set of standards we have now. It is a rather large undertaking because it is different and in my eyes, anything different than what we have now is at least worth a LOOK. You didn’t hear me say, jump right in. I do applaud their efforts that at least seem to TRY to break the cycle of corruption. It seems that what the author of this article has a problem with more than anything is human behavior! Well, that is where it becomes IMPERFECT and something we will all have to deal with as long as we exist. Who is above being governed? Who is beneath? No laws? Who is a worker and for no MONEY? Who gets things first? That is the only thing truly holding the idea back! I think I would like us to try to come up with solutions taken from our Constitution and work out the kinks! The only thing holding America and the globe back from taking back our monetary system is the time it takes WORKING to SUPPORT IT! How many times have you heard “I don’t have the time”… “I’m too busy working”??? We are working to support a system of corruption that feeds on us!

Talk about adjusting prices and money flow! None of that ever adjusts downward in the amount of time the average person works! That keeps increasing! The only resources they have to worry about running out of are humans! Keep us healthy enough to churn in the debt and die just shy of being too old to be burden on profit. Great scam! Is it one worth perpetuating by doing nothing but voting? I am sure you have all heard that saying… If voting changed anything, they would make it illegal.

I do know one thing; all the questions that are coming from this are a good start to actually doing something and since education will be the main focus rather than work, people will have more time to watch the system rather than the ZERO time they have now. We have to think of the future as being something of real change and promise for a better world, it can’t be just talk and we can’t look for perfection because even the movie admits, that wouldn’t be achieved. Talk about fantasy yes, you may not be able to protect yourself with savings from a monetary system that isn’t worth anything to begin with! Should that stop us? Heck no for I don’t even have that saved up! LOL

What is it that we do have? We have big ideas and most of them have NOTHING to do with the system we have now. Where does this leave us? It leaves us with the simple fact that we have to live within our means, get creative and OVERTHROW our existing government! If we can’t get together on that one fact, (Overthrowing our government) we will NEVER see our dreams of freedom come to fruition.

Wondering if your still alive and commenting on the posts….I just thought of something….the “idea” of “incremental change”.

This idea is similar to the Kaizan philsophy of business which is what made Honda the successful company it is today….If we now take our current society and balance it out using kaizan principles….then focus on this incremental change of gains….we might have our so called Venus reality. Now ofcourse your argument is that we will revert backwards and not everyone will be happy with what they have and who will direct this blah blah blah……but we’re looking for continuing progess in society and therefore we must be able stable this to have this occur….any thoughts? I have answers to any questions…this is hard to grasp but I will explain my thoughts…and this makes sense

One more for Alice:

Just discovered this tonight. Amazing ideas in this one. Even if they are a ways off from being mainstream, at least someone is thinking them. I find the ideas inspiring and hopeful and incredibly apolitical – which is a breath of fresh air.

Anyway, enjoy: http://www.asknature.org/article/view/what_is_biomimicry

Hi, my name is Stavros and i am currently on my master Research program in Ancient Greek History leading into the Ph.D and i would like to say a few things on this whole matter. I spent 4 hours watching the zeitgeist movies and i got fairly disappointed with the ending. The central idea behind it is good but i think it can never work. Firstly money is not the invention of banks to control the world. Currency has been around in many ancient civilisations and that enabled people to interact and trade. I cannot see how a world could function without money. Some people say that if energy is free then money will not be needed. Okay, since i am an ancient historian, i would counter this with an example from Ancient Greece. Sparta (an ancient city-state in the Peloponnese in Southern Greece) famously did not have money so that the citizens would not be corrupted and during it’s pick time it indeed functioned well without money. The thing though is that the Spartans did not need money to exchange goods because they had everything in abundance produced in their allocated plots by the Helots ( the enslaved population of the neighbouring Messinia). Whenever the Helots were freed by the Thebans, the Spartan system collapsed. Needless to say that they referred to each other (Spartan Citizens) as “HOMOI” which means “equals”, but they had two kings, a board of elders and the ephors that formulated the agenda of the meetings of the people (male citizens), at which the voting took place through shouting, after the most influential people took the podium. Without money some people were still higher in a society of equals. So in order to make currency useless you need someone something to produce the things you need for free right? That’s 1. 2 in order to make those things (or machines) that would create everything for humans, you need other humans to make them, fix them and research so that technology and the machines and so forth advances.So these people will automatically have more prestige and influence than the rest, so there goes the society of equals. Also why would anyone want to do this if one knows that there is no “real” exchange for your trade/skill/knowledge?unfortunately very few people would even be bothered to acquire this trade/skill/knowledge. In order to change that you need to essentially breed a new race of humans. This utopian presented in the venus project has some reflections of the Aristotelian and Socratic/Platonic utopians which had a huge impact on communism. 3. in a society with no laws and no one to enforce them what or who prevents anyone from raping a woman in the street, just because he wanted to have intercourse with her? And what then prevents that woman’s husband, father, brother or boyfriend from killing the rapist? I cannot agree with the suggestion that society can function without laws. 4. As for the no government i am assuming that the decisions will be taken by everyone? Total/absolute/radical democracy? How can 6 billion people, of all ages have a saying in a matter which no one puts forth? Lets say everyone puts forth a matter. Do you have any idea what sort of a chaos would come out of that? Who would process these and classify them? how will this be done? Internet? who tell’s us that a hacker wont just mess the whole thing up? And when would it happen when Sydney has 11 hours difference from London?and it is impossible for every single human to have the knowledge and ability to have a saying on every issue that arises. 5. I disagree on the whole medicine thing. It was all the study done by humans that enabled robots to perform surgeries with the accuracy they do and it is this same study that will improve these robots. Do you know how few people would actually bother themselves to becoming doctors because they love it? 6. I cannot understand how everyone would learn to accept and love everyone (nationally speaking and not individually). I am from a Greek-Cypriot. Cyprus ( a small country in the eastern Med- with primarily a Greek population) is occupied since 1974(37% of its land) by Turkey.How am i to be able to be okay with that in a globalised world in which there’s no Greeks and Turks?Where am i born does not matter? Then we will all be the same? how? Who will i be without my history? Yes we are all humans, but the essential characteristics of a group or a nation is what defines us. And i find it extraordinary that we are so few- such a young organism and yet, so different. Why change that? Also why is globalisation different now than of what it could be in the Venus project? Closing i must say that I LOVED the energy suggestions. i hope this actually happens sometime in the near future and i agree on driving smaller cars and making our houses energy self-sufficient. our society can be improved rather than utterly changed. the federal/state banks should and can be owned by the states. so that there is no actual debt on the money produced and this way the great powers can invest in the 3rd world countries. with just a few simple modifications to the existing system our world can become better. This whole idea of the Venus project just seems like a modern version of the classican Greek utopians, and although it sounds promising, it still is just a utopia, that fails to see the problem the way it actually is.
Thank you,
Stavros.
P.S.: Looking forward to comments.

P.S.2:Sorry for my english in some cases…its 6:28 a.m and i’ve been up all night watching the zeitgeist movies..so im not 100% here..

Some pointst:
Pretending people will continue to work without compensation by blaming capitalist propaganda is a cop-out.

What is “open source software” then? Isn’t it just that? People working on projects without any monetary incentive. And why is it possible – exactly because the “resources” for this (computing power, internet) are virtually abundant. How about that, huh?

If people could afford everything they wanted they would stop borrowing to consume and put the banks out of business.

Isn’t that the point?

But the most astonishing question that this movie asked was if technology is the pusher of human progress, welfare and life itself, why the heck do those who rule the world are not scientist and engineers? Why the people in power still debate theological questions? Why indeed.

I find your point of view… rather disturbing and not a little pessimistic.
In several instances you infer that, under the venus project system, someone would be in charge and dictating to you how much you can have, how many children you may have, etc. and nothing could be farther from the truth. The only one that would dictate your wants/needs… is you.
Try to think in terms of what YOUR mind could concieve AND ACHIEVE if you were freed of the drudgery of merely sustaining your own life.
There are many people in the world that would continue to produce simply because they WANTED to. Painters would still paint, musicians would still make music, people curious about the sciences would still be curious and would do work in their CHOSEN profession simply to satisfy their own curiousity… with their only needed reward… the pleasure of doing, creating, inventing. Do you not find pleasure in doing something well? Would you find no pleasure if that something were of benefit to all of mankind? Would you really just stop doing anything simply because you didn’t have to to survive?
Well, that’s OK in the proposed society. creat if you choose, don’t if you don’t wanna.
I gather that most of the people who have written so far have, at least, watched the movie. What follows, I have plagarized from the Venus Project so that you can READ what they have to say. I think that it may change your mind… or, at least open it a little???
The Venus Project operates out of a 21.5-acre Research Center located in Venus, Florida.

When one considers the enormity of the challenges facing society today, we can safely conclude that the time is long overdue for us to reexamine our values, and to reflect upon and evaluate some of the underlying issues and assumptions we have as a society. This self-analysis calls into question the very nature of what it means to be human, what it means to be a member of a “civilization,” and what choices we can make today to ensure a prosperous future for all the world’s people.

At present we are left with very few alternatives. The answers of yesterday are no longer relevant. Either we continue as we have been with our outmoded social customs and habits of thought, in which case our future will be threatened, or we can apply a more appropriate set of values that are relevant to an emergent society.

Experience tells us that human behavior can be modified, either toward constructive or destructive activity. This is what The Venus Project is all about – directing our technology and resources toward the positive, for the maximum benefit of people and planet and seeking out new ways of thinking and living that emphasize and celebrate the vast potential of the human spirit. We have the tools at hand to design – and build – a future that is worthy of the human potential. The Venus Project presents a bold, new direction for humanity that entails nothing less than the total redesign of our culture. What follows is not an attempt to predict what will be done – only what could be done. The responsibility for our future is in our hands, and depends on the decisions that we make today. The greatest resource that is available today is our own ingenuity.

While social reformers and think tanks formulate strategies that treat only superficial symptoms, without touching the basic social operation, The Venus Project approaches these problems somewhat differently. We feel we cannot eliminate these problems within the framework of the present political and monetary establishment. It would take too many years to accomplish any significant change. Most likely they would be watered down and thinned out to such an extent that the changes would be indistinguishable

The Venus Project advocates an alternative vision for a sustainable new world civilization unlike any social system that has gone before. Although this description is highly condensed, it is based upon years of study and experimental research by many, many people from many scientific disciplines.

The Venus Project proposes a fresh approach–one that is dedicated to human and environmental concerns. It is an attainable vision of a bright and better future, one that is appropriate to the times in which we live, and both practical and feasible for a positive future for all the world’s people.

The Venus Project calls for a straightforward approach to the redesign of a culture, in which the age-old inadequacies of war, poverty, hunger, debt, environmental degradation and unnecessary human suffering are viewed not only as avoidable, but totally unacceptable.

One of the basic premises of The Venus Project is that we work towards having all of the Earth’s resources as the common heritage of all the world’s people. Anything less will simply result in a continuation of the same catalog of problems inherent in the present system.

Throughout history, change has been slow. Successive groups of incompetent leaders have replaced those that preceded them, but the underlying social and economic problems remain because the basic value systems have gone unaltered. The problems we are faced with today cannot be solved politically or financially because they are highly technical in nature. There may not even be enough money available to pay for the required changes, but there are more than enough resources. This is why The Venus Project advocates the transition from a monetary-based society to the eventual realization of a resource-based global economy.

We realize to make the transition from our present culture, which is politically incompetent, scarcity-oriented and obsolete, to this new, more humane society will require a quantum leap in both thought and action.

An Obsolete Monetary System

The money-based system evolved centuries ago. All of the world’s economic systems – socialism, communism, fascism, and even the vaunted free enterprise system – perpetuate social stratification, elitism, nationalism, and racism, primarily based on economic disparity. As long as a social system uses money or barter, people and nations will seek to maintain the economic competitive edge or, if they cannot do so by means of commerce they will by military intervention. We still utilize these same outmoded methods.

Our current monetary system is not capable of providing a high standard of living for everyone, nor can it ensure the protection of the environment because the major motive is profit. Strategies such as downsizing and toxic dumping increase the profit margin. With the advent of automation, cybernation, artificial intelligence and out sourcing, there will be an ever-increasing replacement of people by machines. As a result, fewer people will be able to purchase goods and services even though our capability to produce an abundance will continue to exist.

Our present, outmoded political and economic systems are unable to apply the real benefits of today’s innovative technology to achieve the greatest good for all people, and to overcome the inequities imposed upon so many. Our technology is racing forward yet our social designs have remained relatively static. In other words cultural change has not kept pace with technological change. We now have the means to produce goods and services in abundance for everyone.

Unfortunately, today science and technology have been diverted from achieving the greatest good for reasons of self-interest and monetary gain through planned obsolescence sometimes referred to as the conscious withdrawal of efficiency. For example, the U. S. Department of Agriculture, whose function is presumed to be conducting research into ways of achieving higher crop yields per acre, actually pays farmers not to produce at full-capacity. The monetary system tends to hold back the application of these methods that we know would best serve the interests of people and the environment.

In a monetary system purchasing power is not related to our capacity to produce goods and services. For example, during a depression, there are computers and DVD’s on store shelves and automobiles in car lots, but most people do not have the purchasing power to buy them. The earth is still the same place; it is just the rules of the game that are obsolete and create strife, deprivation and unnecessary human suffering.

A monetary system developed years ago as a device to control human behavior in an environment with limited resources. Today money is used to regulate the economy not for the benefit of the general populace, but for those who control the financial wealth of nations.

Resource Based Economy

All social systems, regardless of political philosophy, religious beliefs, or social customs, ultimately depend upon natural resources, i.e. clean air and water, arable land and the necessary technology and personnel to maintain a high standard of living.

Simply stated, a Resource-Based Economy utilizes existing resources rather than money and provides an equitable method of distributing these resources in the most efficient manner for the entire population. It is a system in which all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter, or any other form of debt or servitude.

Earth is abundant with plentiful resources; today our practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter productive to our survival. Modern society has access to highly advanced technologies and can make available food, clothing, housing, medical care, a relevant educational system, and develop a limitless supply of renewable, non-contaminating energy such as geothermal, solar, wind, tidal, etc. It is now possible to have everyone enjoy a very high standard of living with all of the amenities that a prosperous civilization can provide. This can be accomplished through the intelligent and humane application of science and technology.

A Resource-Based Economy would make it possible to use technology to overcome scarce resources by applying renewable sources of energy, computerizing and automating manufacturing and inventory, designing safe energy-efficient cities and advanced transportation systems, providing universal health care and more relevant education, and most of all by generating a new incentive system based on human and environmental concern.

Many people believe that there is too much technology in the world today, and that technology is the major cause of our environmental pollution. This is not the case. It is the abuse and misuse of technology that should be our major concern. In a more humane civilization, instead of machines displacing people they would shorten the workday, increase the availability of goods and services, and lengthen vacation time. If we utilize new technology to raise the standard of living for all people, then the infusion of machine technology would no longer be a threat.

To better understand the meaning of a Resource Based Economy consider this: if all the money in the world were destroyed, as long as topsoil, factories, and other resources were left intact, we could build anything we choose to build and fulfill any human need. It is not money that people need; rather, it is free access to the necessities of life. In a Resource Based Economy , money would be irrelevant. All that would be required are the resources and the manufacturing and distribution of the products.

When education and resources are made available to all people without a price tag, there would be no limit to the human potential. Although this is difficult to imagine, even the wealthiest person today would be far better off in a resource based society as proposed by The Venus Project. Today the middle classes live better than kings of times past. In a Resource Based Economy everyone would live better than the wealthiest of today.

In such a society, the measure of success would be based on the fulfillment of one’s individual pursuits rather than the acquisition of wealth, property and power.

The Choice Is Ours To Make

Human behavior is subject to the same laws as any other natural phenomenon. Our customs, behaviors, and values are byproducts of our culture. No one is born with greed, prejudice, bigotry, patriotism and hatred; these are all learned behavior patterns. If the environment is unaltered, similar behavior will reoccur.

Today, much of the technology needed to bring about a global Resource-Based Economy exists. If we choose to conform to the limitations of our present monetary-based economy, then it is likely that we will continue to live with its inevitable results: war, poverty, hunger, deprivation, crime, ignorance, stress, fear, and inequity. On the other hand, if we embrace the concept of a global Resource Based Economy , learn more about it, and share our understanding with our friends, this will help humanity evolve out of its present state.

The only limitations are those we impose upon ourselves. The Venus Project is neither utopian nor Orwellian, nor does it reflect the dreams of impractical idealists. Instead, it presents attainable goals requiring only the intelligent application of what we already know

Let me give you a very personal example.

I am retired. I have a sufficient income to live very comfortably for the rest of my life without lifting a finger. I, personally, could sit on the couch and do nothing for the rest of my life and would want for nothing but…
I do work. Not as much as I did when I was scratching to pay the rent but I work nonetheless. I don’t work much but I work as much as I chose and I do it with glee, I do it for the pleasure that it brings me, I do it for the joy I feel in helping others. Finally, after the years of sacrifice, of deprivation, of slugging along under, what I felt were incompetent and un-appreciating bosses. Hating to get up in the morning to go to that awful job. I now wake at my leisure, enjoy the beauty of a sunny morning. Feeling just as contented as I could EVER hope to be and, if I chose, I do some work and my reward is pleasure. Pleasure… in doing something that I WANT to do. Pleasure… in doing something that helps my fellow man. It just makes me feel good. In fact, MOST of the money that I make in my endeavors, I use to help those around me that are less fortunate than I am. Why not? I have all that I need/want.
Can you seriously tell me that that is somehow bad? Subversive? Detrimental to myself or society?
That is what the venues project is trying to offer to the world and you don’t want it? What is wrong with your thinking? Why would ANYONE not want it to work? Why would ANYONE not want to give it a try?
It’s the greatest feeling in the world.

“Yours is the most detailed description of a resource-based economy that I’ve heard to date, including that provided by the Venus Project on their web site.”

actually I think he got it off their website.

“Nobody on here seems to like our current system.”

Our system exists largely by agreement of those who participate in it, especially since we are the freest people who have ever trod the planet. It’s not perfect and it can be better, but it is the way it is because we have agreed to let it be that way.

It’s evolution, man!

So glad you have high expectations of me, Tim.

Maybe it’s because people “have no idea” that “things are the way they are”.
But “things” do change once people get a clue. There are countless examples of this, but one very dramatic and recent one is the civil rights movement in the 1960′s. People finally did something about the horrible conditions black people were being subjected to.

And it didn’t take a whole different society to make those changes. People worked with what they had.

And BTW, I don’t expect or need support for my ideas.

OK. I’ll explain it AGAIN.

TODAY we have solar, wind and thermal power that, were it not suppressed by power companies, oil companies, etc. CAN deliver ALL the clean, free energy that we can possibly use.
TODAY almost everyone has computers.
TODAY we have computer programmers that can produce software that will perform any task that we require.
TODAY we have robotics that are capable of duplicating ANY job that man can do and do it better.
TODAY we can have robotics, controlled by computer software and powered by sun, wind and/or thermal FREE AND CLEAN energy that can feed and water the chickens, milk the cows, produce, package, prepare and serve our meals, operate our vehicles without any more than a voice command to the on-board computer. EVERYTHING that you need to do today to sustain your life can be done without one single human being lifting a finger with the technology that is available TODAY.
You ask, “Someone has to program the supercomputer and maintain it. — Who is going to do all the gathering and shipping? Are we going to institute forced labor camps for this purpose? — Will it be so perfect that no one will have more than they need and no one less?
The answer is simple. Yes someone has to write the programs that will make all this possible, yes someone will have to build the robotics. It will be the same geeks (no offense intended) that LOVE to play with computers just like the painters who paint because they LOVE to paint. No slaves. It will be the geeks that WANT the project to happen that will build the robots and program the computers. The computers will be our slaves. And yes it will be so perfect that no one will have less than they need and, if you want more, push the button on the computer and the computer will command the robot to make it for you.
You don’t need money if all you have to do to get what you want/need is to press a button on your computer and the computer obeys.
You say,” Also everyone who promotes the Venus Project only mentions how people will want to continue painting (art, not walls), researching, and so on to satisfy themselves. No one ever mentions how people will want to continue doing the more mundane, less desirable tasks, such as data entry, garbage collection, sewer maintenance, and so on.
Again the answer is simple. The computers can and will do ALL the more mundane, less desirable tasks, such as garbage collection, sewer maintenance, and so on. Computers and robotics CAN do it all.
You say, “Also the wealthiest of today would not be better off in a resource-based economy. Multiple mansions, beach houses, private jets, top-grade medical care, and power. Are you saying we’ll all have these things and more in a resource-based economy?
The answer: Only if you WANT them. But in a resource-based economy even the wealthiest will eventually wake up and realize that they can’t have it all because everyone has access to every resource that they have and can create for themselves anything their mind can conceive… too!
If you want a 15 bedroom mansion you can have it. Just push the button. You’re not gonna impress anyone with it ‘cause ANYONE can push the button. You don’t need to take mine so you can have yours. Just push the button.
Free, clean, energy, powering computers, which guide robotics to do everything that you need to do to exist. The technology is here TODAY
Tim brought out a very interesting point (THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, Tim) that illustrates your future when the Venus Project is implemented.
“Sparta…famously did not have money so that the citizens would not be corrupted…the Spartans did not need money to exchange goods because they had everything in abundance produced in their allocated plots by the Helots ( the enslaved population of the neighbouring Messinia). Whenever the Helots were freed by the Thebans, the Spartan system collapsed.”
Read that paragraph again. Now read it again. When the Venus Project is implemented, computers and robots will take the place of the Helot slaves. History itself has proven that the Venus Project will work. the Spartans did not need money to exchange goods because they had everything in abundance. It was when their slaves were freed that Sparta collapsed. Who is gonna free our computers? Our robots? And to what purpose.
How simple does it have to be to be understood?
You ask, “Surely, at least in the beginning, there would be a need for physical labor of some sorts. Maybe this could be equally distributed though among citizens. For example, maybe all people have to work a certain amount of manual labor hours each year for a certain amount of years equally, and those hours can be decided by the population as a whole (just a very rough suggestion off the top of my head).”
A good guess but the answer is so much simpler; The physical labor would be performed by the very people who are trying to get this thing off the ground. The people who WANT IT will perform the physical labor, the people who WANT IT will program the computers, the people who WANT IT will build the robots. And when the Beta is complete (or far enough along that it’s self-sustaining) you can come on board. THEY are building it FOR YOU!

Well look what I found on the internet today. Maybe this will help the sceptics understand…

The robots are not so much coming; they have arrived. But instead of dominating humanity with superior logic and strength, they threaten to create an underclass of people who are left without human contact.

The rise of robots in the home, in the workplace and in warfare needs to be supervised and controlled by ethical guidelines which limit how they can be used in sensitive scenarios such as baby-sitting, caring for the elderly, and combat, a leading scientist warns today.

Sales of professional and personal service robots worldwide were estimated to have reached about 5.5 million this year – and are expected to more than double to 11.5 million by 2011 – yet there is little or no control over how these machines are used. Some help busy professionals entertain children; other machines feed and bathe the elderly and incapacitated.

Professor Noel Sharkey, an expert on artificial intelligence based at the University of Sheffield, warns that robots are being introduced to potentially sensitive situations that could lead to isolation and lack of human contact, because of the tendency to leave robots alone with their charges for long periods.

“We need to look at guidelines for a cut-off so we have a limit to the contact with robots,” Professor Sharkey said. “Some robots designed to look after children now are so safe that parents can leave their children with them for hours, or even days.”

More than a dozen companies based in Japan and South Korea manufacture robot “companions” and carers for children. For example, NEC has tested its cute-looking personal robot PaPeRo on children: the device lives at home with a family, recognises their faces, can mimic their behaviour and be programmed to tell jokes, all the while exploring the house. Many robots are designed as toys, but they can also take on childcare roles by monitoring the movements of a child and communicating with a parent in another room, or even another building, through wireless computer connection or mobile phone.

“Research into service robots has demonstrated a close bonding and attachment by children, who, in most cases, prefer a robot to a teddy bear,” Professor Sharkey said. “Short-term exposure can provide an enjoyable and entertaining experience that creates interest and curiosity. But because of the physical safety that robot minders provide, children could be left without human contact for many hours a day or perhaps several days, and the possible psychological impact of the varying degrees of social isolation on development is unknown.” Less playful robots are being developed to look after elderly people. Secom makes a computer called My Spoon which helps disabled people to eat food from a table. Sanyo has built an electric bathtub robot that automatically washes and rinses someone suffering from movement disability.

“At the other end of the age spectrum [to child care], the relative increase in many countries in the population of the elderly relative to available younger care-givers has spurred the development of elder-care robots,” Professor Sharkey said.

“These robots can help the elderly to maintain independence in their own homes, but their presence could lead to the risk of leaving the elderly in the exclusive care of machines without sufficient human contact. The elderly need the human contact that is often provided only by caregivers and people performing day-to-day tasks for them.”

In the journal Science, Professor Sharkey calls for ethical guidelines to cover all aspects of robotic technology, not just in the home and workplace, but also on the battlefield, where lethal robots such as the missile-armed Predator drones used in Iraq and Afghanistan are already deployed with lethal effect. The US Future Combat Systems project aims to use robots as “force multipliers”, with a single soldier initiating large-scale ground and aerial attacks by a robot droid army. “Robots for care and for war represent just two of many ethically problematic areas that will soon arise from the rapid increase and spreading diversity of robotics applications,” Professor Sharkey said. “Scientists and engineers working in robotics must be mindful of the potential dangers of their work, and public and international discussion is vital in order to set policy guidelines for ethical and safe application before the guidelines set themselves.”

The call for controls over robots goes back to the 1940s when the science-fiction author Isaac Asimov drew up his famous three laws of robotics. The first rule stated that robots must not harm people; the second that they must obey the commands of people provided they does not conflict with the first law; and the third law was that robots must attempt to avoid harming themselves provided this was not in conflict with the two other laws.

Asimov wrote a collection of science fiction stories called I, Robot which exploited the issue of machines and morality. He wanted to counter the long history of fictional accounts of dangerous automatons – from the Jewish Golem to Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein – and used his three laws as a literary device to exploit the ethical issues arising from the human interaction with non-human, intelligent beings. But late 20th-century predictions about the rise of machines endowed with superior artificial intelligence have not been realised, although robot scientists have given their mechanical protégés quasi-intelligent traits such as simple speech recognition, emotional expression and face recognition.

Professor Starkey believes that even dumb robots need to be controlled. “I’m not suggesting like Asimov to put ethical rules into robots, but to just to have guidelines on how robots are used,” he said. “Current robots are not bright enough even to be called stupid. If I even thought they would be superior in intelligence, I would not have these concerns. They are dumb machines not much brighter than the average washing machine, and that’s the problem.”

Isaac Asimov: The three laws of robotics
The science fiction author Isaac Asimov, who died in 1992, coined the phrase “robotics” to describe the study of robots. In 1940, Asimov drew up his three laws of robotics, partly as a literary device to exploit the ethical issues arising from the interaction with intelligent machines.

* First Law: a robot must not harm a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to be harmed.

* Second Law: a robot must obey the commands of human beings, except where the orders conflict with the first law.

* Third Law: a robot must protect its own existence so long as this does not conflict with the first two laws.

Later on, Asimov amended the laws by adding two more. The “zeroth” law stated that a robot must not harm humanity, which deals with the ethical problem arising from following the first law but in the process putting other human beings at risk.

Asimov also added a final “law of procreation” stating that robots must not make other robots that do not follow the laws of robotics.

My boss used to give us free sodas and water. Employees would get a drink, open it, take a few sips and set it down. When they were ready for another drink they would get a new one, take a drink and set it down. At the end of the day we would have a trash can full of three quarter full drink bottles.

My boss now charges 25cents for drinks. People write their initials on the cap, tear off labels, and identify their drinks in various other ways. Now the trash can is full of empty bottles. The price system has many purposes.

I was just reading some of the comments at the top of the page and there was one from the author that said he wouldn’t want a person of higher power deciding how many bananas he could have. I don’t think the movie said anything about regulating how much people could have or use, but that the creation of this new society would eliminate peoples greed and desire to have more. The transformation wouldn’t just be to our physical society (buildings, transportation,etc) but a complete change in the way we act as humans. Society would be so radically different that people could be brought up and the idea of having the most bananas or being materialistic wouldn’t even be part of how they think. Whether this could ever happen we will have to see. Its hard to believe it could be with the state of humanity right now. The authors point about people finding other things to fight about is something that also crossed my mind. The venus project may not be the answer but its the fact people are starting to seriously think about the transformation of society to make it better that matters. You have to admit there are serious problems with the way the world works now and there has to be a better way. Hopefully one day we will achieve a perfect society. Love and peace to all!

You’ve only outlined that there are some issues with the Venus project – which the author claimed ‘wasn’t perfect’. For sure the Florida real-estate may still be scarce but things needed in developing nations like clean water and food will for sure not be scarce. The complete elimination of currency may not make sense in our generation from our view point but – perhaps working 10 hour work weeks instead of 60 makes sense.

Bottom line is – it is not fair that because you’re born on one side of the ocean vs. the other you will have a better chance at reaching the age of 5.

Its clear the current system of spending trillions on a war machine does not make any sense at all.

okay i’m not sure what URI stands for but i’ve been reading these back and forth arguements and i would like to express what i have come up with in terms of my concerns about this very controversial topic that many people are pondering; weighing out the pros and cons. I would like to read more of them soon as i am trying to be as open minded as possible to talk and discuss more so that we can all hopefully come to a better understanding of what’s being presented from the venus project.

First thing that comes to my mind so far is that the venus project to me, sounds like the begginings of an aim towards an ideology that is not indevidualist, or collectivist, but perhaps a hybrid of the two, and thats the reason i think so many people are having a hard time with it and grasping its meaning and it’s motives. I aggree with a number of opposing sides so far on a number of elements of the vp topic of which i will not go into detail at this time. Instead might i simply take a more progressive approach to the problem and state my concerns so far

–My first concern is of the abuse of these powerful new technologies, not of the application and emmergence of technology itself. We must remember that when people invent or design new technology that comes about that can do something or serve a certain function in our world, it doesn’t neccesarily mean that it’s meant to be used or applied, or should be, or is going to be applied at all. Sure, we invented an atom bomb but was it nessesary? Did we really have to use it? Did it’s creation imply that it had to be used eventually? My answer is no. Secondly i am concerned with the lack of respect for or at least the understanding of, property rights that is presented in this ideology, such as the organizatiion of who gets to live where and things such as the use of musical instruments or cameras and who has rights over these things that the vp proposses will be available to all? (i recommend whatching the venus project tour on you tube) Who grants the privalages? What party or individual or technology is dictating these decisions and from what standpoint? I’m a musician, and i’ve always wanted to learn to make a guitar, not because i know that i could make a living at it, but because i love playing the guitar and i would love be able to make many of them in my life, not for a living to aquire food shelter and water, but for the sake of the enjoyment of creating them, playing them, and above all the enjoyment of giving them to friends that i love who show an interest in and a desire to learn to play them. I love the idea of the basic neccesities of survival being provided such as free energy and food for all. This means that as an indevidual i could focus on my interests and spend much more of my time giving what i create as means of contributing to the better of society and of myself consequently, as opposed to creating guitars, but finding myself in need to trade them for food and shelter, clean air and water, either directly or indirectly through a medium of exchange. But you see, in order for me to feel the joy and satisfaction of hand crafting an instrument and giving it to a particular friend and saying “here, this is from me to you.”, i would have to know that in my environment, or *our* environment, since i made the guitar and hand crafted it myself, it is my *property* alone and therefore, i hold the *rights* as to whom i could furthermore allow the *previliges* of playing it, or the right to give it to someone as a gift. But also, i would need to know that when i give it to that person, it would be aknowledged in our environment and in our understanding, that it is becoming *their property* now, and from that point *they* would have the *rights* over that intrument and they could, from that point, grant *privilages* to anyone else to use that guitar or whatever. If this exchange of property was not understood, i could not enjoy the act of giving something i create to someone. In my world view, it is self evident that we ARE all one and a